ONR type wash without ONR

[Tony1]

May be time for you to push away from the keyboard for a few if you got upset at what I said. Just because you don't care what you use doesn't mean you should tell others that it's ok to do. If you don't know the chemistry, you shouldn't make statements unless you are willing to assume liability in case your advice causes harm. Manufactures DO stand behind their products and DO formulate them for specific uses. I have read several of your posts that make you come off like a know-it-all, but I never see any evidence of your capabilities. I think your negative comments may just be trolling.



For the record Dr. David Ghodoussi of Optimum created a coating that has been on my daily driver for almost two years and it's still beading almost as well as day one. If you are the type that accepts constructive criticism, I offer this advice: talk less, listen more (that's why we have 2 ears and 1 mouth).

1) I ceratinly do care what I use. If I didn't I wouldn't have given any thought to try regular soap as a rinsless wash. I wouldn't have spent the thousands of dollars and hours on products and detailing. You couldn't be more off with that comment.



2) Do you know the chemistry of every product you use? Do you need to know the chemistry to use the product? You use it and try different things with it and you know what it can and can't do. Just becasue a product claims to be able to do something doesn't mean it can.



3) The liability comment is just :grinno: I simply posted what I have tried and works for me. I'm not responsible for you or anybody else. If I advised you to use a light compound and a polishing pad to remove light swilrs and you went wild and messed up your paint would I be responsible. If we need to start worrying about liability for suggesting to use a product in a ceratin way this forum is finished. The whole thing is discussing products and techniques. Please get real.



4) I come off as a know it all? If you feel that way than you feel that way. I certainly don't know it all but I have picked up much in 15 years of serious car care. Tried more products than I can remember and spent more dollars than I should have trying out the next great thing or product of the month.



5) What kind of evidence of some ones capabilites do you need to see? Over exposed pics taken from angles and distances that don't prove $hit? Go over my posts and call me on anything I have said.



6) I'm trolling because I call it like I see it? Not being a band wagon boy dosesn't make you a troll. Not believing hype and product claims and trying out different things to see for myself and than commenting on it doesn't =troll.





7)When I made the comment about the selants that last years I was referring to the infomercial type products and the crap dealer ships try to sell you. Can't comment on the product you have on your car. If in fact it lasts that long why isn't it product of the month instead of the Autoglym HD Wax?

 

[Tuck91]

Just like the "ONR is dumb thread", this will go on for ten pages, somebody will get banned, the thread will be closed, and I will be just sitting here laughing and shaking my head.

 

[Chris@Optimum]

1) I ceratinly do care what I use. If I didn't I wouldn't have given any thought to try regular soap as a rinsless wash. I wouldn't have spent the thousands of dollars and hours on products and detailing. You couldn't be more off with that comment. sorry



2) Do you know the chemistry of every product you use? Do you need to know the chemistry to use the product? You use it and try different things with it and you know what it can and can't do. Just becasue a product claims to be able to do something doesn't mean it can. I start with instructions then make adjustments. I may try a product on my own vehicle for an unintende use, but would never on a client's or suggest it to a newb. Also, the fact that you "eye ball" how much shampoo you use shows inconsistency and potential marring with your technique regardless of product or method of application



3) The liability comment is just :grinno: I simply posted what I have tried and works for me. I'm not responsible for you or anybody else. If I advised you to use a light compound and a polishing pad to remove light swilrs and you went wild and messed up your paint would I be responsible. If we need to start worrying about liability for suggesting to use a product in a ceratin way this forum is finished. The whole thing is discussing products and techniques. Please get real. Manufacturer make things safe so they don't get sued. They have R & D time that you will never invest. To say that it works for you is very shortsighted in that you don't have any idea of the adverse effects down the road from repeated use. I wasn't saying that you should be liable, just that I trust the chemist's instructions MUCH more that your "eye ball" approach.



4) I come off as a know it all? If you feel that way than you feel that way. I certainly don't know it all but I have picked up much in 15 years of serious car care. Tried more products than I can remember and spent more dollars than I should have trying out the next great thing or product of the month.Calling proven products "ripoffs and gimmicks" is just silly. I wasn't trying to get personal, just let newbs reading your comments know that there may be adverse effects from your suggestions.





5) What kind of evidence of some ones capabilites do you need to see? Over exposed pics taken from angles and distances that don't prove $hit? Go over my posts and call me on anything I have said. None necessary for me, I think I know all I need to from your condescending tone



6) I'm trolling because I call it like I see it? Not being a band wagon boy dosesn't make you a troll. Not believing hype and product claims and trying out different things to see for myself and than commenting on it doesn't =troll. trolling because your always negative and bash products you never used





7)When I made the comment about the selants that last years I was referring to the infomercial type products and the crap dealer ships try to sell you. Can't comment on the product you have on your car. If in fact it lasts that long why isn't it product of the month instead of the Autoglym HD Wax?Nobody here uses infomercial products, educate yourself before you comment, please

With all that said, I respectfully disagree with you. My intentions were not to bash you, but were for the benefit of those less knowledgeable that might read posts like yours, take your advice, and harm their car. Most people should probably stick to the label. If you have 15 years, you may be able to get by with "eye balling" ratios and inventing new chores for old products, but it's probably not the best advice for a novice.

 

[Tony1]

With all that said, I respectfully disagree with you. My intentions were not to bash you, but were for the benefit of those less knowledgeable that might read posts like yours, take your advice, and harm their car. Most people should probably stick to the label. If you have 15 years, you may be able to get by with "eye balling" ratios and inventing new chores for old products, but it's probably not the best advice for a novice.

Yeah trying it out on a panel might cause massive damage and require a total repaint. All you novices out there don't try this. This is a major procedure and only for the people with at least 5.634 years of detailing experience :nervous2:

 

[lasthope05]

Yeah trying it out on a panel might cause massive damage and require a total repaint. All you novices out there don't try this. This is a major procedure and only for the people with at least 5.634 years of detailing experience :nervous2:

It doesn't necessary take a genius to understand that soap residue can and will stain when left on the paint. It might not cause massive damage but it will create more work for you in the long run.





Not pointing fingers at anyone or staying this to anybody in particular but when a person boast they've been in the business for such and such years and it I find that most of the time their "years" of experience is nothing more than improper techniques that they have justified to themselves is correct.

 

[Tony1]

It doesn't necessary take a genius to understand that soap residue can and will stain when left on the paint. It might not cause massive damage but it will create more work for you in the long run.





Not pointing fingers at anyone or staying this to anybody in particular but when a person boast they've been in the business for such and such years and it I find that most of the time their "years" of experience is nothing more than improper techniques that they have justified to themselves is correct.

I'm starting to get amused now. I can't believe the big deal some you are making about this. You would think I said to wash your car with battery acid the way some are reacting. It's soap. Car soap. As I said many times there was no messy residue left. The regular soap worked just as well as the rinseless soap. I don't get marring, left over residue, or anything else negative. If you read through this thread there are others who have used regular soap and had no problems.



As for boasting about how may years in detailing. I was stating a fact. It's not like I started detailing yesterday and just tried this. I have been doing rinseless washes long before it was acceptable. Do a search and see if you can find the threads when Scottwax started mentioning QEW on here. He got a lot of flack. No one could believe you could wash without a hose and not swirl up the paint. Of course now it's all the rage and many are rinseless washing. I started using it back then. I was lurking on the forum and others long before I started posting. I was doing rinseless washing before some of the people in this thread began driving. So if using regular soap was doing any harm I would now by now.

 

[Dan]

I'm starting to get amused now. I can't believe the big deal some you are making about this. You would think I said to wash your car with battery acid the way some are reacting. It's soap. Car soap. As I said many times there was no messy residue left. The regular soap worked just as well as the rinseless soap. I don't get marring, left over residue, or anything else negative. If you read through this thread there are others who have used regular soap and had no problems.

Yeah, I don't think you'll have issues from residue, especially since you are using two buckets, you essentially have a rinse bucket. which with ONR is a waste in my opinion as well as the makers. The thing that makes me wonder is what exactly are you gaining, and at what potential costs?

 

[wannafbody]

I depends on the soap. Some soaps leave films and some don't. You have to experiment. Even the soaps that leave films probably won't do any type of damage other than dulling of the surface which can be fixed with a QD.

 

[David Fermani]

I've never seen any soap damage paint either. Even Dawn. If anything crappy water causes more problems than soap.

 

[Scottwax]

I depends on the soap. Some soaps leave films and some don't. You have to experiment. Even the soaps that leave films probably won't do any type of damage other than dulling of the surface which can be fixed with a QD.

Why go to all that trouble then when there are 3 products specifically designed to use as a rinseless wash? I like to keep detailing as simple as possible.

 

[Tony1]

Yeah, I don't think you'll have issues from residue, especially since you are using two buckets, you essentially have a rinse bucket. which with ONR is a waste in my opinion as well as the makers. The thing that makes me wonder is what exactly are you gaining, and at what potential costs?

Thats the thing I'm not gaining much except I can get regular soap locally.



I just simply wondered what would happen if I used regular soap one day and to my surprise it worked out fine. Thats it. No biggy. I just thought I would respond to the thread starter when he asked if anybody thought doing an "ONR wash without ONR" would cause any harm. Since I have experience in this area I responded.

 

[Scottwax]

Since I have experience in this area I responded.

That's fine but you didn't stop after that but instead decided to bash the no rinse products as a scam and that they aren't chemically different than regular car wash soaps. Both allegations simply are not true.



Both Optimum and DP make rinseless and conventional car wash soaps. Why go to the bother of making and marketing both, the advertising expenses, packaging costs, etc if the car wash soap was chemically the same? Wouldn't it make more sense financially to simply have one product and instructions for conventional and no rinse washing on the label?

 

[Tony1]

Why go to all that trouble then when there are 3 products specifically designed to use as a rinseless wash? I like to keep detailing as simple as possible.

I wondered why they were specifically designed as a rinseless wash? What was it about them that made them OK to use hoseless. I didn't buy into the encapsulation of dirt story. I thought maybe they were better at not leaving messy residue behind. I knew QEW definitely left something behind because of the waxed look and feel and ONR now even more so. So I stopped wondering and tried it. Considering that the risk was zero to minimal and at worst I would have to do a very light polish of the test area I tired it. No problems was my result.



After spending thousands of dollars on products over the years I have become very suspicious of any claims they make and my detailing is much more process and technique focused. I try different things and try to improve the process and technique instead of trying every new product that comes out. Sometimes you find something that works and never thought it would.



I will give you an example. This will probably cause some more controversy and they will want to hang me for Autopian blasphemy. I no longer buff off my polishes when correcting paint :hide: Ha ha thats right. You know what I do now? I have a bucket of QEW with me and I simply wash the area. Removes the polish/compound residue very fast with much less chance of marring up my freshly polished surface. I used to buff with my best MF very carefully to avoid marring and than ended up washing the area any ways to get it clean of polish residue so I could see the paint clearly. So I thought whats the point. Skip the MF buffing and go right to the wash. The wash can handle a filthy car it can surely handle some polish residue. The benefits of this? For me a large time saving, less MF to wash, I have never re marred the freshly polished surface were as with buffing I have even being OCD careful on dark soft paint.



Bring it:woot2:

 

[Tony1]

Both Optimum and DP make rinseless and conventional car wash soaps. Why go to the bother of making and marketing both, the advertising expenses, packaging costs, etc if the car wash soap was chemically the same? Wouldn't it make more sense financially to simply have one product and instructions for conventional and no rinse washing on the label?

The same reason there is P21S and S100 wax. Need I say more?

 

[Scottwax]

The same reason there is P21S and S100 wax. Need I say more?

S100 isn't exactly the same as P21S. Close but apparently there are small differences.



Unless you have analyzed both conventional car wash soaps and rinseless ones, you cannot make the claim there aren't any real chemically differences in them.



I am sure I've spent at least as much as you over the years, if not more and I don't waste my money on hype (notice I use Armor All on tires instead of more expensive boutique products as an example). I wouldn't have used QEW and now ONR if there weren't compelling performance reasons to use them.

 

[David Fermani]

I no longer buff off my polishes when correcting paint :hide: Ha ha thats right. You know what I do now? I have a bucket of QEW with me and I simply wash the area. Removes the polish/compound residue very fast with much less chance of marring up my freshly polished surface. I used to buff with my best MF very carefully to avoid marring and than ended up washing the area any ways to get it clean of polish residue so I could see the paint clearly. So I thought whats the point. Skip the MF buffing and go right to the wash. The wash can handle a filthy car it can surely handle some polish residue. The benefits of this? For me a large time saving, less MF to wash, I have never re marred the freshly polished surface were as with buffing I have even being OCD careful on dark soft paint.

Seeing that most polishes are water based, that's a great idea. I'll give that a try seeing that I have a fresh gallon of ONR I've been waiting to break open. Finally splurged on it after all these years; but still hesitant to try in on a dirty car. That can be step two of my baby steps of being an entry level sudo-ONRian convert.

 

[Tony1]

S100 isn't exactly the same as P21S. Close but apparently there are small differences.

After using both many times I cannot see any difference in appearance, durability ease of use, or any way. This has been debated to death and other than the manufacturer's claim nobody thinks their different.

 

[Tony1]

Seeing that most polishes are water based, that's a great idea. I'll give that a try seeing that I have a fresh gallon of ONR I've been waiting to break open. Finally splurged on it after all these years; but still hesitant to try in on a dirty car. That can be step two of my baby steps of being an entry level sudo-ONRian convert.

Wow an open mind. Very refreshing :welcome

 

[D Tailor]

Seeing that most polishes are water based, that's a great idea.

I've been doing this with ONR for about a month now. No issues here...even on triple black (whatever that is....it is what the painter told me).

 

[Dan]

I've been doing this with ONR for about a month now. No issues here...even on triple black (whatever that is....it is what the painter told me).

Yeah, THAT actually sounds like a great idea. I always have dusting issues, keeping a bucket of ONR around after polishing makes total sense.