No flaming please ... Acrylic vs the rest

G

Gen2

New member
There is a discussion going on in one of our local forum discussing about how much better acrylic product is in term of protection against bird dropping etching. Below is a quote of what is being discussed in the forum,



IMHO, Zaino is more hype than happening. Having used it for over a year, I finally gave up as the protection was quite CMI.



Simple example : Had lunch at ABC market, got bird dropping on the car. Baked for less than 1 hour, and that's it, the stain wouldn't come off. In the end, had to go back to professional groomer to remove it.



Same things happened again last week, had lunch at ABC market (it's under renovation now), got bombed again. This time, I'm on menzerna (FMJ & HGAS). Thought i was in for more work, as the bomb had baked. Used a bit of leftover Z6 to soften it, wiped it off and found no staining, and topped off with HGAS for good measure.



Zaino does deliver a show-car shine, but when it comes to protection, I'd stick with acrylic-based systems like Klasse and Menzerna. To beat the Zaino shine, I just have to layer carnauba over the acrylic.
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I would like to hear some construtive opinions from the detailing gurus here whether it is really true that acrylic based products does provide better protection. No flaming please. Thanks.
 
any chemists want to weigh in? from what I've read the amount of carbon in a product deptermines the hardness-maybe that plays a role in protection level.
 
If bird bombs have enough time on the paint, they'll usually eat through anything in my experiences. Also depends on the bird bomb itself. I've had bombs that are a PITA to remove and some that come off a lot easier. I'm sure the type of bird and bird's diet is a factor. I have stains in areas that were protected with Klasse AIO and Zaino on top.

Best thing you can do is remove it ASAP.
 
wannafbody said:
any chemists want to weigh in? from what I've read the amount of carbon in a product deptermines the hardness-maybe that plays a role in protection level.
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Hardness would affect the ability of something to resist marring, but not necessarily to resist staining or dissolving.
 
I was talking with a guy once about polymers vs. carnauba and he felt that when he tried a polymer it didn't give him as much protection against stone chips. I've never used a polymer on my own car. So, I don't have personal experience with this, but I'm wondering what you guys thought about this as well.
 
not to be harsh but you can't be serious thinking that any LSP is going to protect against rock chips. if you are... sorry but an LSP doesn't matter if it's carnauba or synthetic is no going to protect against stone chips. you're looking at a clear bra for that kind of protection which is a few mils thick.
 
I have to agree with FrizzleFry. The layer of LSP that actually remains on the paint is so incredibly thin, it's not going to prevent a rock from chipping your paint.
 
I was just passing along an observation. This guy observed (or believed he observed) that he was getting rock chips more when he used a polymer as compared with a wax. Also, I feel your quick dismissal of this observation based on the fact that the LSP is a thin layer is a theory with some holes in it. I don't think thin or thick is an issue what is the issue is hardness of the layer. For example Kevlar which is thin will stop a bullet. A one foot thick slab of cheese would likely not stop a bullet.



I'm not trying to say an LSP would could completely prevent rock chips, but I would think it could help to some degree.
 
Think about it, a bird bomb if left on long enough can eat through paint and clear coat! I dont think it really matters what type of LSP you use, you need to clean it ASAP or face the consequences.
 
His argument lacks a controlled experiment.





What if that first bird chewed down some oranges, coffee beans, and alcohol making some lethally acidic s#!t? What if the second bird just had some bread and water?





How about he stops forming an opinion about two completely different events. A proper experiment involves far more than noting bird s#!t hitting your car at a supermarket on two separate occasions. Even a simple experiment like:



-50/50 IPA wipedown on the hood x 2

-Apply Zaino/FMJ to respective sides, then remove after mfr's noted dry times

-Allow to cure for 24 hrs without any moisture touching them

-Then, you could start forming opinions...





Until then, his finding are worth ZERO to me.
 
GSRstilez said:
His argument lacks a controlled experiment.





What if that first bird chewed down some oranges, coffee beans, and alcohol making some lethally acidic s#!t? What if the second bird just had some bread and water?





How about he stops forming an opinion about two completely different events. A proper experiment involves far more than noting bird s#!t hitting your car at a supermarket on two separate occasions. Even a simple experiment like:



-50/50 IPA wipedown on the hood x 2

-Apply Zaino/FMJ to respective sides, then remove after mfr's noted dry times

-Allow to cure for 24 hrs without any moisture touching them

-Then, you could start forming opinions...





Until then, his finding are worth ZERO to me.
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AMEN!!!! :clap: :bolt
 
SK2003TypeS said:
If bird bombs have enough time on the paint, they'll usually eat through anything in my experiences.
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I honestly don't think how long bird bombs stay on the paint matters once they dry. It is when the dookie is wet that it causes damage. I've intentionally left them on for 3-4 days with no damage at all.



I normally have 2-3 layers (or probably more accurately, applications) of carnaubas on my car and have yet to have a bird bomb etch my paint where it couldn't be removed with nothing stronger than Vanilla Moose. This includes the Celica I had when I first started detailing, my Accord and now my Mazda (which happens to be black). The only bird poop etching on my car was there when I got the car and I know for a fact it hadn't been waxed in at least 2 years.



In fact, I can only recall one instance with a regular customer's car where there has ever been any etching after I began taking care of their cars and I was able to remove it with Optimum polish and a polishing pad.



I recently washed a regular's black 740 that has its hood covered in bird bombs. It has a single application of OCW and 2 weeks prior, I had also tried out Zaino Z8 on it the car. Zero etching and the bird bombs had been there about a week, according to the owner.



:nixweiss
 
I left a couple of bird bombs on my mom's car for an experiment (lol wait til Setec sees this) last spring. I had recently detailed the car with AIO/UPP. I left them on there for 2 weeks, and I reminded my mom that they were on there, and she was free to remove them at anytime to end the experiment. But I told her that I was testing the resistance of staining of the AIO/UPP so that's why I hadn't cleaned them off.



After two weeks, I removed the bird bombs and there was no staining. It may be that AIO/UPP is very durable, it may be that the bird(s) had a relatively neutral-pH diet, or maybe both. All I know for sure is that there was no staining whatsoever.
 
Unless you guys are talking about the exact same bird with the exact same diet on the exact same finish, etc., this topic is absolutely worthless and proves nothing. I don't care which product you're talking about...there's no consistency for testing.



I've had Zaino with and without etching. I've had Souveran with and without etching. I've had Wolfgang with and without etching, etc.
 
wannafbody said:
any chemists want to weigh in? from what I've read the amount of carbon in a product deptermines the hardness-maybe that plays a role in protection level.
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wannafbody - not to accuse you of suggesting incorrect information, but I thought I'd look into that.

I emailed my old geology professor regarding carbon determining hardness. Here's her reply, for anyone that is interested.





HI Paul,



High carbon content = hardness? No. Graphite is all carbon and has a H of only 1 - 2. The formula for corundum is Al2O3 (no C) and for topaz is Al2SiO4(F,OH)2 (had to look that one up!) - again, no C.



Have a great break and holiday! (And if it warms up and you want to detail my car, let me know. It’s a mess!)



Cathy





:)
 
ZaneO said:
Unless you guys are talking about the exact same bird with the exact same diet on the exact same finish, etc., this topic is absolutely worthless and proves nothing. I don't care which product you're talking about...there's no consistency for testing.
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:nixweiss Regardless, on 3 different cars and with all the different makes of cars my customers have using a wide variety of products, bird drop etching hasn't been a problem. I just think the main thing is to have some sort of protection on the car as the best defense, no matter what it is.
 
Scottwax said:
:nixweiss Regardless, on 3 different cars and with all the different makes of cars my customers have using a wide variety of products, bird drop etching hasn't been a problem. I just think the main thing is to have some sort of protection on the car as the best defense, no matter what it is.
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Yes, protection is very important, but no product on the market can prevent all etching from bird droppings.
 
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