Microfibers cause scratching?

C

Cholleman

New member
I know it's probably bilge, but I ran across a discussion on another forum about MFs. the jist is that they're 80% plastic (polyester and polyamide) and will induce scratching. My take is that it's probably user error (dirty towels, contaminants, etc) but just wanted to know what autopia thought. here's the excerpt:



"Using Microfiber to clean your car:

Those answers mean I step on a few toes, even my own, when it comes to

products. Many of the products that were safe to use on a vehicle 3 years ago are not safe on newer cars due to a change in paint. Many of the products being sold to clean a vehicle will damage the sealant on your vehicle over time.

Unfortunately by the time it's noticeable the damage has already happened and there is no undo key built into a vehicle.



Caution about cleaning with microfiber:

Industrial paint and sealant manufacturers warn against washing your vehicle with the popular microfiber products. They are made from 80 to 85% polyester & polyamide, which is plastic. Plastic scratches and over time and repeated use they will scratch the sealant off your car and then start on the paint. Your car' paint will begin oxidizing even though you have taken excellent care of your vehicle.

Due to VOC regulations, paint is now being changed from lead based to water based. The paint is not as hard as it has been in the past. Even though sealants are applied over the paint to protect it, if the sealant is scratched

off due to microfiber or the wrong kind of petroleum distillate being used in a wax, the paint is then left vulnerable to rapid oxidation, rust and deterioration. I sell microfiber cloths and do not want you using something

that I know will damage your sealant over time. At a large industrial trade show I had microfiber manufacturing companies verify this information.

If your vehicle is a 2002 or prior to 2002 using 100% cotton is safe and does a great job cleaning safely without scratching. If your vehicle is newer than 2002 then 100% Lambswool is recommended. It is even softer and gentler than cotton." Unquote





Preventing paintwork damage & swirls - Microfiber towels - MBWorld.org Forums
 
Cholleman said:
I know it's probably bilge, but I ran across a discussion on another forum about MFs. the jist is that they're 80% plastic (polyester and polyamide) and will induce scratching. My take is that it's probably user error (dirty towels, contaminants, etc) but just wanted to know what autopia thought...
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IMO it's a mix of fact and fiction, with a whole lot of over-generalization. So yeah, "bilge" pretty well sums up its overall value. OK, I'll waste some time countering it....







here's the excerpt:



"Using Microfiber to clean your car:

Those answers mean I step on a few toes, even my own, when it comes to

products. Many of the products that were safe to use on a vehicle 3 years ago are not safe on newer cars due to a change in paint...
Click to expand...



Too generalized. Some paints are harder, some are softer, some are the same.





Many of the products being sold to clean a vehicle will damage the sealant on your vehicle over time.
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Even if this were true you could just apply more sealant/wax. Oh, but he later implies that post-2002 paintwork has some kind of "sealant" (different use of the word from what we'd generally think of" that provides the real protection...something on top of the clearcoat. Never heard of that and I've discussed such stuff with people who work with this stuff at the OEM level.

Unfortunately by the time it's noticeable the damage has already happened and there is no undo key built into a vehicle..
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[sarcasm]Wow, that'd have to be some awfully bad damage that somehow escaped notice until it was too late [/sarcasm]

Caution about cleaning with microfiber:

Industrial paint and sealant manufacturers warn against washing your vehicle with the popular microfiber products. They are made from 80 to 85% polyester & polyamide, which is plastic. Plastic scratches and over time and repeated use they will scratch the sealant off your car and then start on the paint. Your car' paint will begin oxidizing even though you have taken excellent care of your vehicle.
Click to expand...



The blend is only one (small) part of the equation. The better MFs are soft enough that they don't cause scratches due to the extremely small-gauge/fine strands. If they take off the sealant (huge "if" IMO as the never do it for me) put more on. Don't leave the paint exposed and you won't have to worry about such stuff.



Rub most automotive paint with a high-quality MF. Inspect with magnification. You won't see any damage. Yeah, there are "stupid-soft" paints that *will* mar, but they'll mar worse with cotton or lambswool.



Due to VOC regulations, paint is now being changed from lead based to water based. The paint is not as hard as it has been in the past.
Click to expand...



As previously noted, inaccurate due to over-generalization. Some are harder, some are softer, some are the same.

Even though sealants are applied over the paint to protect it, if the sealant is scratched off due to microfiber or the wrong kind of petroleum distillate being used in a wax, the paint is then left vulnerable to rapid oxidation, rust and deterioration.
Click to expand...



Any sealant/wax/whatever needs redone now and then anyhow.

I sell microfiber cloths and do not want you using something

that I know will damage your sealant over time. At a large industrial trade show I had microfiber manufacturing companies verify this information.
Click to expand...



I don't accept his implied claim of expertise and cedibility nor am I impressed by his attempt at aligning himself with other experts. Uhm..the "MF companies", who are selling their MFs for use on automotive paint, *verified* that those MFs aren't safe :think: I don't believe that, lets see documentation.



If your vehicle is a 2002 or prior to 2002 using 100% cotton is safe and does a great job cleaning safely without scratching. If your vehicle is newer than 2002 then 100% Lambswool is recommended. It is even softer and gentler than cotton."
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I have vehicles of various vintages, from old single stage lacquer to post-2002 (to pick his date ;) ) basecoat/clearcoat. Some are hard, some are soft.



I have all sorts of textiles, cotton, MF, sheepskin/lambswool. Some are soft, some are not. My better MFs are by far the softest of these.



Plenty of seemingly *VERY* soft cotton textiles will mar automotive paint. It's often clearly visible under magnification. Automotive International used to have some great macro shots showing this. If you rub my older cars with the softest cotton, you'll mar certain surfaces, if you rub them with the softest MF you won't..same story with *most* of my vehicles regardless of vintage; gee, guess how I know.



Some textiles will mar some paint, some other combos don't result in marring. Just that simple. But when in doubt, use the softest MFs you can get.

 
Cholleman said:
I know it's probably bilge, but I ran across a discussion on another forum about MFs. the jist is that they're 80% plastic (polyester and polyamide)
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See, that right there is completely wrong...they're 100% plastic.
 
What a dumb post. Accumulator pretty much summed everything up. Its just one big generalization.



The thread is pretty dumb also. You got people saying "OH NO IVE BEEN USING MF SINCE THE DAY I GOT THE CAR!!!



Its like, why is someones post (who doesn't state his credentials on why he's an MF expert) going to pursuade you to stop using it now? If there has been no damage than what's the problem? And if there is damage, why didn't you stop using them before?



Than you got people saying they wash the car by pouring water over a spot on the car and wiping the dirt away. Its definitely not the mf that's causing the damage there. If anything, the mf has probably helped keep the damage down by wicking some of the smaller grit up into its fibers.



Ill be sticking with my MFs thankyou
 
wannafbody said:
I've used some name brand MF that definitely leave micromarring. On a lighter color it would probably never be noticed.
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Same here. Some are so popular here that you'd be plastered to the wall for mentioning them.
 
costco blue towels were my go to....I cant find them anymore....might need to order some more monster fluffy jr. from patrick at exceldetail! I use the one he gave me the other day finally and WOW is all I can say!!!! but at the pricetag, costco looks better!!!



heard mixed reviews on some other MF i hvae that I am trying out, so I will have to wait an see about those!!!
 
My edgeless Cobras are fantastic.



I think most microfiber problems arise from user error and/or low quality microfibers.
 
wannafbody said:
I've used some name brand MF that definitely leave micromarring. On a lighter color it would probably never be noticed.
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Please tell, I have a Black 2010 camaro on its way. I have bought cobra

MF's....How about a PM ,please....I am new to detailing and I DONT wont

to mar this baby up.
 
bucket said:
My edgeless Cobras are fantastic.



I think most microfiber problems arise from user error and/or low quality microfibers.
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Those scratched a hood I was waxing. Check the edges.
 
bucket said:
My edgeless Cobras are fantastic.



I think most microfiber problems arise from user error and/or low quality microfibers.
Click to expand...

Another thing people dont discuss a whole lot is user technique. I dont care what the edges are sown together or wrapped with, just dont apply pressure to the edges of a MF when buffing. I think this is where the majority of marring is born from.
 
What gets me all :angry is that somebody's gonna read that [crap] and a) make bad decisions based on it and b) tell his friends who will also make bad decisions.



While I'm tempted to say that stupidity deserves to reap what it sows, eh...that seems a bit harsh.



I didn't read the whole article....did it mention anything about how MFs *can* be hazardous to certain auto electronics (Porsche underhood stuff IIRC)? Just curious whether a *real* potential issue was even mentioned :think:



a.k.a. Patrick said:
Another thing people dont discuss a whole lot is user technique. I dont care what the edges are sown together or wrapped with, just dont apply pressure to the edges of a MF when buffing. I think this is where the majority of marring is born from.
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Yeah, I never think to mention that as it seems intuitively obvious...but you know what they say about assumptions :o



SpoiledMan said:
Some [MF that mar auto paint] are so popular here that you'd be plastered to the wall for mentioning them...
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I'd sure like to know which ones are gonna cause trouble, popular or not. I've had all sorts if various issues with all sorts of different MFs (and other textiles too).



loudog2 said:
Those scratched a hood I was waxing.
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-AND-



camaroDan said:
Please tell, I have a Black 2010 camaro on its way....I am new to detailing and I DONT wont to mar this baby up.
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Same old same old..if you're gonna use something like a towel/sponge/brush/etc. on your paint you need to test it first to see if it's safe. The CD-test isn't perfect but it's good for a ballpark evaluation. And remember to test it the way you'll use it (wet/dry, realistic pressure, etc.). Give it some thought *before* something happens ;)



Don't just assume something's OK because somebody else (myself included) says so. That will be scant consolation if you get the only bad MF in a batch of thousands of good ones.



And remember to *keep testing* regularly as stuff does wear out.
 
a.k.a. Patrick said:
Another thing people dont discuss a whole lot is user technique. I dont care what the edges are sown together or wrapped with, just dont apply pressure to the edges of a MF when buffing. I think this is where the majority of marring is born from.
Click to expand...



Yup, user error is probably most often to blame. If there is anything between the MF and the paint, it's gonna scratch.



Most all good quality MF's aren't going to mar when used properly on completely particle-free paint. The CD test is still, IMO, a viable test to see if an MF is going to mar, although there are a few stupid soft clears that are going to mar no matter how carefully an MF is used.





My favs are still the Eurows, but Greg Nichols taught me a very valuable lesson regarding Eurows... when they start to pill, you'll want to either do a CD test with them again, or check a small area on the car you're going to use them on. Eurows ability to mar goes way up wthen they start to pill.
 
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