Layering - is it a marketing based myth or reality?

[imported_Lightman]

Hey guys - a bit of a philisophical question I'd like to open up to discussion. It appears that most of us have bought into the marketing these wax and polish companies have pushed down to us, and that we are all applying our LSP's in multiple layers (at least when we're doing our own cars or those that require a lot of durability, like a winter prep). My question is does layering really work? How do we know, objectively? Has there ever been any scientific study thats results we have access to, that proves that additional applications of wax or sealant actually build up a thicker/add another layer to what's existing on the paint?



Consider this - you've detailed a vehicle, and are at the point where KSG has dried on the paint. You go to buff it off which works well because you applied it thinly ( ), but you have some thicker spots that are hard to get off. A quick mist of Sonus Acrylic Spritz, liquid ksg, or even some water+ksg mix, and the buildup just wipes right off. So with that noted, what's to say that when you apply a second layer of (wet) ksg, you're not wiping off the first layer that you have already applied? How is one to know that when you 'boost' with acrylic spritz after a wash that you're not 'cleaning' off the sealant, even tho they are marketed as compatible...?

 

[imported_paradigm]

i believe in multiple layers...but only to ensure full coverage on the paint. if products actually layered...then there would be a more obvious effect when you hear people that state they have applied 5...10...even 50 (!) layers of products such as zaino.



2...maybe 3 tops for me, if i'm bored.

 

[joyriiide1113]

I have seen wax applied via spit-shine soo much that it actually started to lose its luster and become very hazy looking...



2-3 for good coverage is all I'm willing to do. If I want some mroe gloss I use QD's.

 

[fdizzle]

i dont have the time for multiple layers . . . 2 - 3 coats of ksg tops for me . . . maybe a carnuba topper on a special car, but not for my daily drivers.



more than that seems like a waste of product to me . . .

 

[Wetwerks]

We agree with the 2-3 layers max, and that would just be to insure complete coverage. The way we see it is you can apply 50 coats if you want to but if it is on an unpreped surface its still going to look bad.



Walter

co-owner

 

[Accumulator]

My question is does layering really work? How do we know, objectively? ...

Simple, you apply multiple applications to one area and only one to the other (adjust application schedule so that final applications happen at the same time). Observe over time...the area with multiple applications will stay "well waxed/sealed/etc." longer if the product layers. Needless to say, you have to control other variables such as "refreshers"/QDs/uniformity in shampooing and environmental exposure/etc. But it's not that hard to prove it to yourself.



It's pretty obvious that most waxes and sealants layer *in my experience* and sometimes the effect is striking, especially with regard to durability, if not always appearance.



I've experimented somewhat carefully with KSG and got markedly superior durability out of six layers as compared with four, and have found that even just two or three last a *lot* longer than one. Experimenting with only one layer was a real eye-opener for me; I'd always built up numerous layers before and found that with only one things started deteriorating (slightly) after only a month or so, little better than some waxes.



I've also experimented with Autoglym SRP, a cleaner-type product that contains light abrasives, the sort of product that "shouldn't" layer. Two applications stay smooth/slick/beading a lot longer than one application if you do the second one with the right technique.

 

[Grimm]

Whether manufacturers have actually done it or not, I would think there is some way to measure the thickness of one coat as apposed to two. Even if you couldn't actually measure the coating thickness, I would think you could come up with some sort of experiment to show whether two coats is thicker than one. Something along the lines of say dragging an object across a panel and finding the difference in the minute amount of pressure between leaving a scratch and not leaving one. Then apply that pressure of leaving a barely vissible scratch to a panel with two coats and see what the result is. Even if it requires a 3rd or 4th coat to be a visible difference it still proves that layers work.

 

[Accumulator]

Whether manufacturers have actually done it or not, I would think there is some way to measure the thickness of one coat as apposed to two. Even if you couldn't actually measure the coating thickness, I would think you could come up with some sort of experiment to show whether two coats is thicker than one..

When Mike P. and the lab guys at Meguiar's tried measuring LSPs they couldn't do it. I suppose it'd be possible with the right equipment but nobody who cares seems to have that.



FOr an experiment, you could try a variation on my "claying through LSP experiment": find two specks of contamination that you'd normally clay off. Wax over top of one with one layer and the other with multiple layers. Then see what it takes to clay through the LSP to get to the contamination. You'll clay through one layer of KSG a *lot* faster/easier than you'll clay through four

 

[imported_Lightman]

My question was not how many layers do you do or prefer...but so far we've got 3 folks or so that only do multiple layers theoretically to ensure complete coverage (meaning they do NOT believe in 'layering').



Accumulator you seem to suggest that you believe in layering, however your examples could also easily be explained by the theory that others have suggested about getting complete coverage...especially considering how thinly ksg is typically applied.



Grimm - you clearly are onto what I'm getting towards...some way other than subjectively to identify whether or not you can actually apply layers to a paint surface.



I'd like to believe layering works (just that desire to believe or belief in layers is what IMO motivates many autopians and detail enthusiasts to spend lots of time on their rides)....especially with all the marketing from the sealant makers about cure time, x number of hours between coats, etc. But who knows...at the end of the day those companies are in business to make money, not to perfect our cars' finishes.



Still looking for some tangible evidence.

 

[abbeysdad]

Look at it differently... have you ever heard "two thin coats of paint are better than one thick coat" ?



Okay, so we accept that paint can be layered. So what's different about polymers and waxes?

Of course there are some that surely can't be layered because they contain solvents and/or cleaners that would likely remove the previous layer(s). But more pure polymer sealants and waxes don't have these and should be able to bond and sit on top of the previous layer.



To more specifically answer the question, the second layer doesn't remove the first so long as the first has bonded with the surface. Some sealants may require some curing time to better ensure the success of subsequent layers (I think Zaino claims to have gotten around this with their SFX reagent to cure the polymer more quickly).



So yes, I believe layering is possible and can produce dramatic results in both durability and shine.

 

[Accumulator]

Accumulator you seem to suggest that you believe in layering, however your examples could also easily be explained by the theory that others have suggested about getting complete coverage...especially considering how thinly ksg is typically applied..



Still looking for some tangible evidence.

Yeah, I'll come right out and say that I believe in layering *with some products*, and that my belief is based on first-hand observation under what I consider sufficiently controlled conditions.



Disclaimer: Part of this, and why people oughta experiment for themselves, is that to accept my findings you have to accept that I exercised the proper controls. I sure won't blame anybody who says they just can't grant that, since hey, they weren't there to see what I did and how I did it. I will say that I dont think I missed anything of consequence or introduced any wildcards, but that's just IMO.



If the complete coverage issue is of concern (and I don't believe it is in my case as I'm very careful/methodical in my application of product), then compare two layers with six. Or put the one layer on so thickly that you can absolutely tell that you didn't miss any areas.



Especially when applying a product with the PC/Cyclo, I can't imagine *not* getting complete and uniform coverage. All those OPMs...no way you're missing an area if you're remotely diligent about what you're doing.



The experimenting I did yielded clear and somewhat dramatic results- as in half a panel slick and beading, the other half *not* slick and sheeting; no way to misinterpret the results IMO. Try some experimenting using whatever controls you consider proper. I'm quite certain that your results will clearly speak for themselves in either direction and that the yes/no conclusion will be a matter of which products you test.



Heh heh, noting that I don't consider this stuff fun, if I didn't have objectively determined reasons for applying a product more than once I sure wouldn't do it. When I can get by with not applying a LSP (as I once did for over a year with the MPV, thanks to the layerability of KSG ) then I don't do it. If it didn't look better or last longer, I'd simply not bother applying more than once and I had to convince myself that it *is* worth doing before I accepted it. E.g., it took me a few winters do determine how many layers of given products were sufficient to protect my winter wheels until spring (four layers KSG, still trying with the Collinite 476S but four was mighty close with that too).



Prove it to yourself and you won't have to wonder about it any more or take anybody's word for it

 

[joyriiide1113]

Wasn't there an experiment where a member of either Autopia or DC layered Klasse and marked each layer with a black permanant marker and would layer more Klasse over it. Then he would maintain or wash his vehicle and see if different layers would fade and die down sooner than others?



If not, its time someone does that.



Joy

 

[fdizzle]

i like the point about the paint . . .



i wish particular sealants had faster cure times . . . i would love to put 5 coats of KSG on my ride and top it with a nuba . . . . but it just takes so long for KSG to cure properly . . . even 8-10 hours is just to long, as 2 of the 3 personal cars we own get driven daily, and the other has to stay outside. . . .

 

[TigerMike]

Like many things in life, it is pretty much impossible for us to tell with complete certainty, without highly accurate and expensive tools that are not at our disposal (at least most of us). With that said, I agree with Accumulator's line of thinking with regards to layering abailities. That is, when I see that 2 coats of a product are more durable than just 1, or 5 coats are stronger than 2, and so on. I, like many here, over the years have experienced this with many different (layerable) products. If durability, beading, and protection are increased with subsequent coats, then the product is layering on itself. On the other hand, if a product contains cleaners (i.e. AIO), and you apply subsequent multiple coats, you will still get rather poor durability. Real world testing by many here (myself included) and elsewhere have concluded that 1 coat of Zaino, for instance, will have lesser durability than 2 or 3 coats. Why? Only answer I can give is its ability to layer, as even the manufacturer suggests. So, I do not believe in that case it is merely a marketing line.



Also, even if a product supposedly contains no cleaners, the level of solvents can affect the layerability of the product. This is one reason I believe that many carnaubas will not truly layer. They contain large amounts of fairly heavy solvents, and I'm inclined to believe those solvents will eat away at previous layers. So, I think when looking for a layerable product, you need to find one with very low solvent content, and also with no significant cleaners present.

 

[Grimm]

Wasn't there an experiment where a member of either Autopia or DC layered Klasse and marked each layer with a black permanant marker and would layer more Klasse over it. Then he would maintain or wash his vehicle and see if different layers would fade and die down sooner than others?



If not, its time someone does that.



Joy

You know, I think you are on to something there. I think that would prove pretty conclusive and you wouldn't have to even do the washing. If waxes can be layered, then theoretically you should be able to put a mark on the first layer, and then after putting on a second layer that mark should still be there. But if putting on a second layer indeed removes the first layer, then it would also remove the mark. The only question is whether the permanent marker will bond to the wax, or just wipe off like a dry erase marker when doing the next layer. I may have to try this..

 

[imported_Lightman]

Guys this is a good discussion, although I don't think anything has been solved/settled just yet, there are counter arguments and holes in every theory so far. It seems like you guys are a bit defensive too - which I don't get - not trying to say with this thread that you guys are wasting your time, hell - I just finished yesterday putting on my second coat of SG on the truck, and have another planned...which is what spurred my curiosity for some real truth, not just subjective or experiential results. It sounds like the answer to my question is that nobody truly knows (due to no access to or no equipment), yet some feel they have concluded with reasonable certainty in their own home-experiments that it does. I guess a few home tests cant hurt, and several would suggest a pretty solid answer, but I guess I was looking for something a little more definitive.



Accumulator, your findings as far as durabilty goes on one side vs the other are definitely suggestive that multiple applications increase durability, however they don't necessarily prove or suggest that the product is actually layering, versus the uniform coverage suggestion from the above posters. The reason I say that (in response to your 'I don't know how anyone could get un-uniform results using a machine) is basically because I don't believe we know how much/where the lsp is actually sticking/bonding once it's buffed off. I understand that while laying the product down and when it's dry you can visually see that all of the paint surface is covered..however what we don't know, is how much lsp actually stuck to the paint once it's buffed off...it may not be uniform at that point..I dont think we really know for sure.. :think2



It's a nice thought and no offense to the posters(!), but the 2 thin coats of paint analogy doesn't hold much water and really is apples to oranges. Of course you can layer paint..you aren't buffing it off minutes later! You can certainly layer wax until it's a foot tall too if you don't remove it.



As for lsps that have no solvents not being able to remove bonded lsp, are you sure? When I spray a KSG/water mix on a panel where dried ksg is too hard to remove, it melts off like it was never there..so it seems either water or ksg is able to dissolve ksg or at least remove it very easily w/no pressure.

 

[Scottwax]

I have never seen with my own eyes any real appreciable appearance improvement going beyond 2 thin layers of a sealant to ensure complete coverage. IMO, the whole layering issue is marketing/internet hype that in reality only depleted product faster than necessary.



I think what really happens is after the intial few layers, washing and enviromental conditions slowly degrade the finish. A month later, you wash the car and put on another few layers. Are you really building on what was already there, or are you just restoring the finish to the way it was after the first initial detail? Are your eyes really good enough to notice a 3-5% degredation in appearance after a month that you cancel out by adding a couple more layers of a product? Could it be the improvement in appearance you think you see is really just going back to 100% again?



The only real advantage I have ever seen is to layer carnaubas to cause distortion to the paint so as to improve depth. Even then, the effect is very subtle and I doubt very much there is much durability improvement.

 

[imported_Lightman]

Scottwax, aside from you finding no noticeable appearance improvement from more than 2 applications lets call them (which by the way seems contrary to all those raving posts people make about how after the 3rd layer the paint REALLY started to POP, etc), did you ever notice any differences in durabilty with more than two applications? It sounds like Accumulator's testing in the durability department at least revealed that more applications provide longer protection than fewer...however as mentioned above, I dont think we really have conluded whether it's truly layering versus filling in/bonding more uniformly.



Not that I've asked, but if they had one I'm sure it would have been out by now - but I'm pretty surprised if none of the larger detailing supply companies have paid some labs to actually scientifically measure the coats/bonding/layering issues...I know if I owned one of those companies and was making claims about layering my products, I'd want to know 100% for a fact that it does in fact literally layer. Maybe the manufacturers do have an answer..I dunno.



Fdizzle - any chance you could grab me a liter of cola? :chuckle:

 

[TigerMike]

I have never seen with my own eyes any real appreciable appearance improvement going beyond 2 thin layers of a sealant to ensure complete coverage. IMO, the whole layering issue is marketing/internet hype that in reality only depleted product faster than necessary.

I believe there is a distinct difference in adding additional coats for the sake of appearance versus the sake of durability and protection. If you are talking appearance, then 2-3 coats is likely the maximum any product will truly provide. However, I do not believe that only 2 coats of ANY layerable product will yield the maximum potential for durability. I believe you are blurring the lines between appearance and durability/protection. In this regard, I do not believe it is just marketing/internet hype with regards to additional protection offered by multiple coats at one time.

 

[Scottwax]

Scottwax, aside from you finding no noticeable appearance improvement from more than 2 applications lets call them (which by the way seems contrary to all those raving posts people make about how after the 3rd layer the paint REALLY started to POP, etc), did you ever notice any differences in durabilty with more than two applications?

No. I haven't noticed that 3 layers of ZFX'ed Z2 Pro on my brother's van protected any better than a single layer of Acrylic Jett, although to be fair it would have been better to test 3 layer of Z2 Pro vs 1 layer of Z2 Pro.



If you apply a few layers all at once, yeah, you might slightly improve the durability but when the layers are applied a month apart, all I feel you are doing is getting the durability of the final layer applied.