Layering - is it a marketing based myth or reality?

this is a great discussion...maybe some day someone will take cross section images with an electron microscope or similar and settle it. :)



in the real world...how many of us wait long enough between applications of a product (whether that is a quick spray sealant/nuba after a wash, full detail, or single layers of a protectant) that it would ever matter? i think i'd have seizures if i waited more than a few months anyway...so at that point nearly any product will protect until the next application.
 
Lightman- Heh heh, yeah, I know that *I* can get defensive-sounding on some of these topics :o if only because it sometimes seems like some people are saying I can't believe what I perceive with my own senses. And in past threads like this I've had some people suggest that I might've introduced extraneous variables (e.g., failure to equalize starting points for comparative timeframes; applying QD after washes; etc.) as if I knew nothing about conducting proper testing methodologies. Hope I don't come across *too* much like that on this thread as nothing can kill a good discussion quicker than people getting bent out of shape about differing experiences and opinions.



It seems that when I get greater durability out of six layers than out of four, well.. with four layers/applications I just can't imagine it not being sufficient for good coverage, bonding, etc. After all, the manufacturers say (or at least imply) that *one* application is sufficient. I figure it's clearly a case of it taking longer for a "thicker accumulation of layers" to wear off, just as it seems obvious that the areas I clay the most and/or the areas that take the most environmental/usage abuse will fail first, which they do.



I'm as leery as the next guy of "a simple, seemingly self-evident answer that's completely wrong" ;) but this one seems like a no-brainer.



With regard to your "if I owned one of those companies...", that's probably why people like you and me wouldn't be the most successful in that field :D Without all the hyperbole, (many) people probably wouldn't buy the products. I give Meguiar's credit for having *tried* to measure build-films of LSPs, and they seem to lean towards not making outright claims about "layers", preferring to suggest that more applications might be better and leaving it vague like that.



paradigm- Yeah, most people here reapply stuff so often that none of this really matters all that much. OTOH, heh heh, one of my more egregious moments of Autopian Heresy was when I did that KSG-durability test on my minivan :o I did nothing but wash and spot-clay it for, IIRC (I'd have to check my notes to be exact), 16 months :eek: I watched it gradually fail (and noted which panels, with how many layers, failed first) and finally redid it before the last panel completely quit beading, I just couldn't take it any more :D But at that point you could *still* feel the KSG on the paint almost everywhere.



That's one of the great things about KSG, the way you can actually feel it on a surface. Whether it's beading/sheeting/whatever, you can tell if it's on there because it feels very different from bare paint, even when it's lost its slickness/smoothness.
 
well in regard to Zaino and AJ from what I understand they should be able to layer because of their low solvent content and lack of cleaners. Most other products are mixed with waxes so layering probably doesn't work as well.
 
I guess I have to ask the reverse... why wouldn't Klasse SG layer of top of AIO ? And if KSG can sit atop AIO, after it dries/cures, why can't another layer of KSG sit on top of that? Finally, why wouldn't a topper of a high quality Carnauba sit atop layers of acrylic sealant?

Is the perfect shine on this very site a myth???
 
It is not a myth if you are referring to pure waxes. Pure waxes will layer almost perfectly provided that sufficient time is given for a layer (or deposit for naysayers) to bond and dry to the paint.



The effects of proper layering would have to be observed, however, in a live wax comparison. In terms of an optimal look, you can apply as much wax to your paint (provided the surface is clean and free from contaminants) as you see fit. In addition, different lsps will have an optimal look at varying stages in comparison with other products. Some waxes will require many layerings to achieve a shimmering look, whereas other potent waxes will not require multiple application of layerings in order to achieve a great finish.



I feel that a paint surface will do very well by having a good amount of wax layerings on its surface in a period of six months to a year, but good judgment and moderation should be used. No matter how much wax or lsp doses you apply to a finish, in due time the lsp deposits must be stripped clean from the surface in order to properly maintain your paint with good prep work.
 
joyriiide1113 said:
Wasn't there an experiment where a member of either Autopia or DC layered Klasse and marked each layer with a black permanant marker and would layer more Klasse over it. Then he would maintain or wash his vehicle and see if different layers would fade and die down sooner than others?
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That was Foxtrapper, and I tried to duplicate it here . I had applied layers in rapid succession, but all the numbers pretty much faded at the same time.



I have to mention, as Scottwax alluded to, that if you're layering, say, once a week, and put on 5 layers, the last layer was put on 5 weeks after you started, so you've got a moving target for when you start your durability clock. What I mean is, if it's 3 months after you started and you say "my durability is great at 3 months!", it's really been less than 2 months since you applied product. Just noting that in that case, "layering" gets you more frequent application, hence a "fresher" coat of product, which we all know is good.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
...[could have a] moving target for when you start your durability clock. What I mean is, if it's 3 months after you started and you say "my durability is great at 3 months!", it's really been less than 2 months since you applied product..
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Heh heh, yeah, gotta think of that sort of thing, unless you're trying to cheat/push an agenda ;) That's what I meant by my "equalized starting points" when comparing different numbers of applications; if you compared one layer applied in Feb. with the last of six layers finished in March, you'd have started out with a month-long difference. I would've expected anybody to take that sort of thing into account, but I suppose you can't assume stuff like that.. A few days' difference in start times wouldn't bother me, at least not if the test were looking for durability/etc. differences of weeks or months, but the more control the better.



On the SG-layers/Sharpie test, I always wondered what the solvent effect of the Sharpie ink would contribute. Sounded like another variable to me :nixweiss



lbls1 said:
No matter how much wax or lsp doses you apply to a finish, in due time the lsp deposits must be stripped clean from the surface in order to properly maintain your paint with good prep work.
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Oh gee...you're reminding me that I really do need to start over on the S8 one of these days :o Maybe this winter...
 
IMO the solvent content would determine layerability. The higher the solvent content the more chance you've dissolved the first layer.
 
wannafbody said:
IMO the solvent content would determine layerability. The higher the solvent content the more chance you've dissolved the first layer.
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On a basic level that makes sense/seems logical. However I can't imagine that something like KSG has much or any solvents, being that it's touted as being a true LSP only...yet a water/ksg mix misted on dried ksg will wipe it off with ease. Maybe this is because the water or just the fact that it's a liquid adds a little more 'traction' to the mf towel..



Well I just came in from putting application #3 of KSG on my truck and buffing it off. All three coats were done between Friday and today, so I think that they are close enough to at least let me gauge some durability. Parking outside and having black paint, it seems the sun or cleveland's acid rain doesn't allow for any lsp to last very long, however this is by far the beefiest coating of protection I theoretically have ever put on it, so we'll see.
 
From my anecdotal and in no way scientific experience, layering does work. This whole discussion has made me very, very curious though about a truly objective measurement. My typical routine has been KSG, now AJ, in 2 to 4 layers topped with a carnuba. No way to really objectively measure what the layering does, but it seems that cars which I only get one layer of KSG then wax on don't last as long as multiple layers of KSG.



I think this spring, once I'm through with evil winter, I'll try an experiment on the roof of one of my cars. It's parked outside 24/7, so it's the perfect test subject. I'm going to do half the roof or hood with AJ in one layer, and the other half in AJ with 3 or so layers. AJ supposedly allows multiple layers to be applied the same day, so I should be able to remove the variable of applying multiple layers a week or more later. I'll just go about life as normal and see if the one layer side seems to fail first.



Unfortunately, even if I see no difference in longevity, I bet I'll find myself still applying multiple layers over time......just because I enjoy applying something to my car whether it needs it or not on a nice summer Saturday afternoon with a few beers......truly one of life's few pleasures.
 
Accumulator said:
Heh heh, yeah, gotta think of that sort of thing, unless you're trying to cheat/push an agenda ;) That's what I meant by my "equalized starting points" when comparing different numbers of applications; if you compared one layer applied in Feb. with the last of six layers finished in March, you'd have started out with a month-long difference. I would've expected anybody to take that sort of thing into account, but I suppose you can't assume stuff like that.. A few days' difference in start times wouldn't bother me, at least not if the test were looking for durability/etc. differences of weeks or months, but the more control the better.



On the SG-layers/Sharpie test, I always wondered what the solvent effect of the Sharpie ink would contribute. Sounded like another variable to me :nixweiss





Oh gee...you're reminding me that I really do need to start over on the S8 one of these days :o Maybe this winter...
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Maybe.....and guess with what?? hmmm??
 
You know, I seem to remember someone mentioning a sealant or wax that they were able to actually put on a plastic bag and peel off after it was cured. If that is possible, then what about doing multiple bags with multiple layers and then measuring the thickness after peeling? Of course it would still require some way to control the application so that you are certain the the layers are equivalent, but if one bag has six layers and shows significantly thicker than the bag with one it should prove pretty conclusive.
 
lbls1- Heh heh, no way would I do that big thing with your fave ;) The Audis get stuff that lasts a long time and that I can do by machine.



lawrencea- Some paint is a *LOT* more/less porous than other paint. Example: using a Meg's pure polish on ss lacquer is very worthwhile, using it on a perfect, hard, b/c paint (e.g. the Audis I've tried it on) is a complete waste of time, it just wipes on and wipes right off; no pores or othe micro-fissures for the stuff to get "caught" in.



Another maybe-neither-here-nor-there experiment/observation I stumbled across: I was applying 476S to some black painted winter wheels. I got a bit heavy-handed about the application thickness and got a buildup in some stamped lettering/part numbers on the wheels. This build-up happened gradually over the course of four or five applications of the wax; at first it was barely noticeable but by the last application it was a great example of "wax build-up". I tried to use the "like removes like" method to get it out of the stamping, that is I put some more 476S on a cloth and rubed it over the stamping, trying to effect a solvent-action on the trapped wax, figuring that the solvents in it would soften up the wax build-up. No way, didn't do a thing for it, just built up even more. It didn't even soften it to the point that I could pick it out with a sharpened toothpick, that wax was *in there*, bonded/layered like glue. At the end of the winter it was still in there, I had to use a solvent to clean it out and even that took a while.
 
Accumulator said:
lbls1- Heh heh, no way would I do that big thing with your fave ;) The Audis get stuff that lasts a long time and that I can do by machine.



lawrencea- Some paint is a *LOT* more/less porous than other paint. Example: using a Meg's pure polish on ss lacquer is very worthwhile, using it on a perfect, hard, b/c paint (e.g. the Audis I've tried it on) is a complete waste of time, it just wipes on and wipes right off; no pores or othe micro-fissures for the stuff to get "caught" in.



Another maybe-neither-here-nor-there experiment/observation I stumbled across: I was applying 476S to some black painted winter wheels. I got a bit heavy-handed about the application thickness and got a buildup in some stamped lettering/part numbers on the wheels. This build-up happened gradually over the course of four or five applications of the wax; at first it was barely noticeable but by the last application it was a great example of "wax build-up". I tried to use the "like removes like" method to get it out of the stamping, that is I put some more 476S on a cloth and rubed it over the stamping, trying to effect a solvent-action on the trapped wax, figuring that the solvents in it would soften up the wax build-up. No way, didn't do a thing for it, just built up even more. It didn't even soften it to the point that I could pick it out with a sharpened toothpick, that wax was *in there*, bonded/layered like glue. At the end of the winter it was still in there, I had to use a solvent to clean it out and even that took a while.
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Oh its a big car...oops my bad. Hurry though....it will be ashame to miss it!
 
Going along with Accumulator's theory kinda, one way I know products layer is when i did my brother's Volvo I didn't clay it cuz I wanted to do it fast and was gunna do it again later, but I ended up spending more time on it, cuz when ever I start detailing its hard to stop. lol Anyways, it was rough (not too bad, but small particles, nothing really that big), I added one layer or CGs Extreme Top Coat and it was a little smoother, then another and a little more smooth, then another and OCW and it almost felt like I had clayed it. So my conclusion is that it layers and that you dont have to wait too long between layers cuz I did it right aftter another.
 
Hondaguy do you really know that it was layers or could it be the fact that you applied/buffed off multiple coats of product, and that action on the paint as well as any chemicals in the products you used removed the contaminants? Also, your example does not distinguish between actual 'layers' and the theory of more complete coverage. I think the answer is starting to look like nobody actually knows scientifically.



Looking forward to more home brewed tests on durabilty with more applications vs fewer though. I think I'm going to do one on the roof of my truck since I havent touched it yet and its always parked outside.
 
Lightman, I think you need to step back and see whether or not your theory of more complete coverage is still reasonable about certain number of applications. I mean, maybe with 3 applications, you can say that they all contributed to more complete coverage. But any more than 3 applications of a wax, with a PC for very uniform distribution, isn't it beyond resonable to doubt that the wax still hasn't reached complete coverage?



If more durability is always explained with theory of complete coverage, it will mean that KSG needs at least 6 layers according to Accumulator's experiment. Because apparently, it is much more durable than 4 layers. So if 10 layers is more durable than 6 layers, does that still reasonably mean that we need 10 layers of KSG for complete coverage?
 
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