Is it me or the 5 Series paint?

[LeMarque]

2012 black metallic. Just couldn't get it to 'pop'. Typical BMW orange peel. Two step. D300 w/Optimum MF at first, then switched to SurBuf. I found it took less passes and the marring was about the same. Finished with 205 and LC Flat blue. Had some Griot's Paint Prep. So wiped down with that and a final quick wash. Then topped with the new Poxy.



First, can anyone say what might have caused this:

Water spots all over the car, swirls and light RIDS:

The end result - it was a bit overcast:

 

[Ron Ketcham]

Not to be "harsh" but it is you/process.

Those are not just "water spots", but light acid etching.

Don't know the whole story, but it would appear you "over worked" the issue and created excessive heat of the clearcoat while attempting to do the correction.

Grumpy

 

[LeMarque]

Not to be "harsh" but it is you/process.

Those are not just "water spots", but light acid etching.

Don't know the whole story, but it would appear you "over worked" the issue and created excessive heat of the clearcoat while attempting to do the correction.

Grumpy

I'm married. I know 'harsh' JK



So what do you see that tells you I overworked the clear? I made three passes per section w/moderate pressure on a GG speed 4.



//edit



I actually tried 151 w/Optimum first but it couldn't remove the 'etching'

 

[Ron Ketcham]

1. Did you inspect the "water spots" before starting with a good maginfier (30x lighted is best)?

2. Did you check the "skin temperature" of the clear as you worked it? (even a DA with whatever pad/product may exceed the temperature that all the paint companies/vehicle manufacturers/SAE has shown is the max temp that a modern high solid clear may attain.)(aprox 105F to 115F)

Modern high solid clears are very close to the chemistry of common plastics, so they don't like heat as it "softens" them and the "softening" means that the substrate is expanded (becomes less dense and is subject to easier introduction of "marring" to the material.)

Grumpy

Grumpy

 

[LeMarque]

Well now I feel like a blockhead :knockout: I was researching infrared thermometers on Amazon looking for one that was meant for paint (not bread dough) - and never followed thru. And you know, I just took delivery of Amico 30x Foldaway Eye Loupe Gemstone Jewelry Magnifier with LED Light - Amazon.com but having questioned the customer about the 'water spots' and he not having an answer of what might have been the cause, I guess I just assumed :redface1:



So you're saying I worked the 5 Series to long/hard and got it to hot? Any recommendations for a thermometer?

 

[Ron Ketcham]

May have worked to long.

Any of the newer thermometers will work, even the little $10 from Harbor Frieght, which I have one, and the bigger, more expensive one, which I use as well.

Both will do the job, brand is not important, that's just marketing of the same tool with a name on them.

Learn to "look into the paint film" with a good magnifer, is you see "bubbles", or deep cloudiness, you may have some deep damage.

One wipe or such with a polish should and usually, will remove the "water spots", but if after that, you see the afore mentioned conditions, it's usually the dreaded "etching", which is the breaking apart of the resin system of the paint film (binder/film former", which is what keeps the paint film together and produces the nice "gloss" everyone wants to see.

(by the way, those "acids" that caused the problem will not be removed by clay or buffing, so once the surface is exposed to more water(oxygen molecules/oxidizer) and some heat above about 70F, the acids reactivate and start "eating" again. Even worse in large city's where it is warmer and have a pollution problem of "ozone", which is a more active oxidizer than oxygen)

Grumpy

 

[mpower4life]

As for the first picture.... the microfiber pad not being clean. Those pads need to be very clean to prevent this marring. As soon as I switched over to blowing out my pads with compressed air and doing a thorough clean after each panel, I noticed a night and day difference in this issue. The compound is hardening on the microfiber threads and therefore scouring the paint.



Also.... Surbuf pads will cause this also and and should be followed up by a microfiber pad always. Not the other way around.



If you dont have compressed air handy, try switching out to a new microfiber pad on a section and see if it clears up the marring.

 

[mpower4life]

i should also add..... BMW metallic paint is the worst with this issue... You will still probably have some marring after compounding. Humor me here and try following up and finishing down with M105 on a tangerine hydro cut pad or something of that nature (rub the 105 into pad prior to applying to vehicle surface with a microfiber towel so that the pad is wet but compound worked into pad) , even a finishing pad should clear it up. Use a little pressure and try speed 3 and go slow.... and also be very careful when wiping off residue as that can easily marr up that paint. Use a very soft microfiber towel.

 

[autoconcierge]

As for the first picture.... the microfiber pad not being clean. Those pads need to be very clean to prevent this marring. As soon as I switched over to blowing out my pads with compressed air and doing a thorough clean after each panel, I noticed a night and day difference in this issue. The compound is hardening on the microfiber threads and therefore scouring the paint.



Also.... Surbuf pads will cause this also and and should be followed up by a microfiber pad always. Not the other way around.



If you dont have compressed air handy, try switching out to a new microfiber pad on a section and see if it clears up the marring.

Ahhh , bringing a slight tear to my eye.......................... knowledge sinking in.

 

[mikenap]

1. Did you inspect the "water spots" before starting with a good maginfier (30x lighted is best)?

2. Did you check the "skin temperature" of the clear as you worked it? (even a DA with whatever pad/product may exceed the temperature that all the paint companies/vehicle manufacturers/SAE has shown is the max temp that a modern high solid clear may attain.)(aprox 105F to 115F)

Modern high solid clears are very close to the chemistry of common plastics, so they don't like heat as it "softens" them and the "softening" means that the substrate is expanded (becomes less dense and is subject to easier introduction of "marring" to the material.)

Grumpy

Grumpy

Ron, can you explain a little more about this? I've heard you mention it before, but I'm confused on how manufacturers can claim that their paint should never exceed a temp of 115F. Any dark colored car on a sunny day can easily get much higher than that. There must be something I'm not understanding here.

 

[LeMarque]

As for the first picture.... the microfiber pad not being clean. Those pads need to be very clean to prevent this marring. As soon as I switched over to blowing out my pads with compressed air and doing a thorough clean after each panel, I noticed a night and day difference in this issue. The compound is hardening on the microfiber threads and therefore scouring the paint.



Also.... Surbuf pads will cause this also and and should be followed up by a microfiber pad always. Not the other way around.



If you dont have compressed air handy, try switching out to a new microfiber pad on a section and see if it clears up the marring.

Thanks. But the first image is how the car came in. It was about a foot or more high and swept almost the entire length of the left rear door.



I cleaned pads with air after almost every pass. Time consuming but I'm forcing myself to do it. Also changed pads frequently. So your saying when using SurBuf to follow that with MF?



-



Lance

 

[LeMarque]

i should also add..... BMW metallic paint is the worst with this issue... You will still probably have some marring after compounding. Humor me here and try following up and finishing down with M105 on a tangerine hydro cut pad or something of that nature (rub the 105 into pad prior to applying to vehicle surface with a microfiber towel so that the pad is wet but compound worked into pad) , even a finishing pad should clear it up. Use a little pressure and try speed 3 and go slow.... and also be very careful when wiping off residue as that can easily marr up that paint. Use a very soft microfiber towel.

205 on the LC Blue cleaned up the marring just fine. I'm wondering how 105 on a cutting pad after D300 isn't going to impart still more marring? Not arguing just wondering.



And just to mention, I do have a habit of feeling the pads, MF or foam, after each pass. And at most the SurBuf might have been 'warm' every now and then, but not anywhere near hot.



-



Lance

 

[mikenap]

205 on the LC Blue cleaned up the marring just fine. I'm wondering how 105 on a cutting pad after D300 isn't going to impart still more marring? Not arguing just wondering.





-



Lance

Surbufs are extremely aggressive and often leave a haze that can be hard to follow up in just one step. 105 on a cutting pad is used to clean up the deeper haze from the Surbuf, and although you are right that it will leave marring of its own, that marring is generally a lot lighter and easier to clean up with just one additional step. Many times you can't go from a Surbuf directly to a finishing step. Did you happen to IPA wipe the surface after the 205/blue step?

 

[Ron Ketcham]

Ron, can you explain a little more about this? I've heard you mention it before, but I'm confused on how manufacturers can claim that their paint should never exceed a temp of 115F. Any dark colored car on a sunny day can easily get much higher than that. There must be something I'm not understanding here.

This is for "buffing" not amibant air temp or such exposure.

Grumpy

 

[mikenap]

This is for "buffing" not amibant air temp or such exposure.

Grumpy

Ok, thank you. I had a feeling this was the case but the wording made me curious. Appreciate the quick response! :thumb:

 

[RaskyR1]

This is for "buffing" not amibant air temp or such exposure.

Grumpy

I'd like more info into this as well. How would effects of heat generated from polishing be different than a panel getting 160+ degrees sitting in the sun?

 

[RaskyR1]

Were these marks in the paint prior to polishing? If they are from after polishing I will say they are not consistent with the movement of a DA polisher, so I'd have to guess it was from a towel...maybe during your wipe-down?





EDIT: Never mind. I really need to read the whole thread before posting a comment!

 

[RaskyR1]

I've always found this paint to be harder, but easy to work on....obviously not all of them will respond the same though.

 

[mikenap]

I'd like more info into this as well. How would effects of heat generated from polishing be different than a panel getting 160+ degrees sitting in the sun?

Possibly because you're incorporating the friction and motion of the polisher and pad alongside the heat? I'll let Ron respond to it but that's my guess. I have noticed that on certain softer paints it's better to let the panel cool down before wiping off residue to prevent towel marring. Maybe this is related.

 

[RaskyR1]

Possibly because you're incorporating the friction and motion of the polisher and pad alongside the heat? I'll let Ron respond to it but that's my guess. I have noticed that on certain softer paints it's better to let the panel cool down before wiping off residue to prevent towel marring. Maybe this is related.

I reread his post and I think I get what he's saying. When I first read it I though he meant the paint can't get that hot or it could cause failure. My bad.



Disregard my question Ron.