How much buffing is too much buffing?

C

Corey Bit Spank

Active member
I haven't been on this site in ages. I apologize if there is already another thread. I know David had similar concerns a few years ago, and probably still does.



What is the consensus on buffing? I used to buff my car twice a year with a polish similar to DACP. This was when I didn't really consider that I was reducing the thickness of my paint.



Within the past few years I've paid attention to washing to prevent marring and scratches, and only light polishes (FPII being one of my favorites).



I have some parts of panels on my car that I suspect the paint being thin, but it's an old car and that's not really my concern.



I'm concerned about inexperienced or ignorant detailers polishing cars too often. Let's face it, people do not know how to wash their cars properly. Is polishing a car twice a year, or even once a year over the course of the lifetime of a car, a smart move in terms of paint longevity? I detail to take care of my car, having it look good is a secondary concern.



I'm not looking for arguments. In fact, I'd really like to see paint thickness data so that anybody can come to the determination themselves.
 
For most I dont think its a concern, as many wont keep a car for more than 5 yrs. For those who polish 2Xs a yr. and keeping their car for over 5 yrs. maybe a paint gauge is in order.

Your quote:(Within the past few years I've paid attention to washing to prevent marring and scratches, and only light polishes (FPII being one of my favorites)) thats the key for longevity.
 
A paint gauge is kind of like watching a forest burn down. It's not actually a systematic approach to proper paint care over time. That's the point I'm trying to get at. :)



Although monitoring is good, it may not be what most people on here should be doing.
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
I'd really like to see paint thickness data so that anybody can come to the determination themselves.
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Corey Bit Spank said:
A paint gauge is kind of like watching a forest burn down. It's not actually a systematic approach to proper paint care over time. That's the point I'm trying to get at. :)
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Your posts are confusing to say the least. :think: I don't understand your point or how a paint gauge wouldn't qualify as a useful tool in a systematic approach to proper paint care over time. :nixweiss
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
A paint gauge is kind of like watching a forest burn down. It's not actually a systematic approach to proper paint care over time. That's the point I'm trying to get at. :)



Although monitoring is good, it may not be what most people on here should be doing.
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Sorry I dont know where that frown icon came from cause I agree with you about proper washing techniques to prevent marring which in turn will prevent from polishing too much. As far as paint gauges goes. If lets say that youve had a car for 5 yrs. and polished 1x a yr and plan to keep the car forever than IMO a paint gauge can be very helpful. I wouldnt want to keep polishing an area that the cc is too thin. I do not own a paint gauge and I dont feel its necessary for me at this time. I only do my personal cars and its only 4 yrs old and I'll probably trade it in next year. If I were to keep the car forever then I would invest in a paint gauge. Someone posted that a fairly good gauge can be had for around 80 bucks. Small price to pay than a re-paint.
 
Unless you're doing serious scratch/defect removals on a regular basis, I feel a light polishing won't cause ill effects on the clear. I've had several customers where we’ve buffed their cars every other month for years and nothing happened. I personally think a PTG is irrelevant for these types of maintenance. I find it hilarious when *some* people post Click N Brags with paint readings when all’s they’re doing is medium to light polishing. Makes me wonder if it’s all for show or what? OTOH, it’s a valuable tool to have if you do heavy corrections or sandings.
 
OK. Let's try some real numbers. My BMW is a 1996. It's 2008. That's 12 years. I didn't buy the vehicle new nor have I buffed twice/year. But say I have — that's 24 polishings. Is that too much. At which point would a paint gauge be useful?



BTW - I plan to keep my 1996 Bimmer for at least another 5 years.
 
Corey- Hey, nice to see you posting here again :wavey



I can argue this topic from both sides, and that's based on 1st-hand experience! So I'm afraid the answer is simply "well, it just depends". Yeah, less than satisfying huh? I keep some of our vehicles a long time, and my experiences have simply been all over the map so I dunno if there *is* a definitive answer; just too many variables.



Washing the way I do, and being willing to live with deeper imperfections, I simply don't worry about it on the Audis. But I'm genuinely concerned about the remaining paint thickness on the Mazda MPV..different vehicles, different paintjobs and the paint on that Mazda is *thin* from the factory. The area where I killed the clear with the PC gave me and my painters an opportunity to check this out (when feathering in the repair) and there just isn't much clear there. On its uncleared areas (under the hood, single stage window surrounds) I'm down to primer after virtually no correction at all and only very mild products when I did correct it.



And on the '85 Jag's ss metallic paint (fewer than 20K miles, pretty pampered existence), no more polishing, period. I was never all that aggressive about it, but over the years it's gotten to the point where any additional abrasion causes problems that look a lot worse than the marring. OK, ss metallics are rare and weird, but the point is that I never felt I was being remotely aggressive on that car and I sure never expected thinned-paint problems from anything I did.



ETGs aren't necessarily a shot in the dark as you can gauge trends over time and if/when you notice any area getting thin (even by general standards if you don't have a proper baseline) you'll at least know to take it easy on those spots. I find mine very handy and it's kept me out of trouble (my Denali XL won't take much more correction either, none in some areas, and I wouldn't know that without the ETG..never know what's happened to a vehicle before you get it).



wacomme- FWIW, I killed the paint (eh..poor choice of words) on my '97 M3 by rotarying it in an attempt to remove marring that wasn't nearly as bad as people here correct all the time. It had never (to anybody's knowledge) been aggressively polished before and I didn't do anything stupid/overly aggressive..but my ETG says I took off too much clear and in a few areas I can just *barely* see subtle indications of that (you don't have to have a major "oops" to have a problem, depending on how particular you are)...so it's gonna end up getting repainted. And some of the "not so bad" marring is *still* there...I ran out of clear before I got it all out.



Note that since I was able to verify my fears with the ETG before I went *way* too far, I *could* just keep from *needing* a paintjob for quite a while as long as I didn't park it in the sun too much (which I don't); nobody would notice the thinned spots in a million years unless they were doing an actual (and very meticulous) inspection under controlled conditions.



So I'd be a little careful about what you do if you plan to keep that Bimmer with original paint for another five years ;)
 
Legacy99 said:
Sorry I dont know where that frown icon came from cause I agree with you about proper washing techniques to prevent marring which in turn will prevent from polishing too much. As far as paint gauges goes. If lets say that youve had a car for 5 yrs. and polished 1x a yr and plan to keep the car forever than IMO a paint gauge can be very helpful. I wouldnt want to keep polishing an area that the cc is too thin. I do not own a paint gauge and I dont feel its necessary for me at this time. I only do my personal cars and its only 4 yrs old and I'll probably trade it in next year. If I were to keep the car forever then I would invest in a paint gauge. Someone posted that a fairly good gauge can be had for around 80 bucks. Small price to pay than a re-paint.
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Where i can find a paint gauge $80?

Thanks

Frank
 
Like Accumulator mentioned, there's alot of variables such as paint type, UV exposure, maintenance, and type of correction being done to say every car finish can be buffed forever without problems. As I said before, the vehicles I've maintained for both my clients and myself have been regularly rotary polished for up to 5 years without any hint of paint failure. I would hope that if someone has enough interest in keeping/collecting their vehicles long term, they'd have the equal integrity to maintain them at the bare minimum levels not needing any more than minimal correction. I'm also a strong believer in the concept of correcting a vehicle to the absolute maximum potential initially and then maintaining the finish with a nice glaze/finishing polish. You really shouldn't need more than that if you know how to wash your vehicle. For example, my wife's black minivan was fully corrected more than 7-8 months ago and just recently needed a freshening up so I glazed it over this past weekend. It's restored back to it's glory and I'll gaurantee no paint was deminished. I was scratching my head recently when I noticed someone's Click N Brag where they posted using a PTG when all they were doing was using 3M Ultrafina with a finishing pad? What's the point?
 
David Fermani said:
...my wife's black minivan was fully corrected more than 7-8 months ago and just recently needed a freshening up...
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Heh heh...that caught my eye :D Nice to know I'm not the only guy here keeping a minivan nice ;) And even *I* wince at the thought of a *black* one!



But yeah, you're right- once a vehicle is fully corrected, it shouldn't need aggressive polishing again for, well...pretty much *forever*, RIDS excepted... it's all in how you wash 'em.
 
Ah. I think this is why I became jaded with detailing other people's vehicles because I knew they would end up a swirly mess in no time despite my proper washing directions and pointers.



I watched it happen a few times.



"Can you get rid of the swirls again?" Can I? SHOULD I!?
 
detail1 said:
Where i can find a paint gauge $80?

Thanks

Frank
Click to expand...

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Accumulator said:
But yeah, you're right- once a vehicle is fully corrected, it shouldn't need aggressive polishing again for, well...pretty much *forever*, RIDS excepted... it's all in how you wash 'em.
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That is pretty much my outlook on my car right now. I've done some decent correction to it so now, theoretically, I should just have to do proper washing and the occasional glaze or finishing polish.



Proper washing and drying is an underrated tool in this field I would say.
 
wannafbody said:
I think most marring occurs during drying.
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IMO the "which: washing or drying?" thing probably depends on what the person's doing :think: I can imagine it happening either time.



Assuming that all the drying media is CD-tested, if people would get most of the water off without touching (flooding rinse, AirWand, etc.) and blot what's left, that oughta work OK.



The kind of marring I always see here looks like it comes from doing BIG, LOOOONG swipes while washing or drying (yeah, insert :nono here!] so if people would just quit making long, uninterrupted motions they could improve things immensely...little 1/4" long scratches oughta be pretty easy to live with.
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
Ah. I think this is why I became jaded with detailing other people's vehicles because I knew they would end up a swirly mess in no time despite my proper washing directions and pointers.



I watched it happen a few times.



"Can you get rid of the swirls again?" Can I? SHOULD I!?
Click to expand...



I don't see anything wrong with doing regular *light* swirl removals as long as the proper product/pad/technique is used. But, if you're regularly chasing after deeper RIDS, that's buring the candle at both ends.



wannafbody said:
I think most marring occurs during drying.
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Really, that's interesting. I feel it's created in the wash step. You'd think there's a greater chance that the dirt on the surface will put microscopic marks into the finish(from abrasion/friction) than touching a finish that's already 100% clean. I've mostly used damp cotton hand towels (up until recently) and I haven't notice any marring.
 
A way to see if the marring occurs during drying would be to polish a black panel to perfection, mist it with water and wipe with whatever drying media you use. I think I'll do that on my next black correction, I've always wondered if it was either washing or drying that causes marring. :doh



My guess is that it is the washing.
 
Bigpoppa3346 said:
A way to see if the marring occurs during drying would be to polish a black panel to perfection, mist it with water and wipe with whatever drying media you use..
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That'd basically be a riskier version of a CD-test. I'd rather test on a CD than on my paint :D (and I test and retest my wash/dry media kinda frequently).



Different opinion on the drying-related marring: I figure it comes from residual dirt that the wash didn't get off, so a just-polished panel wouldn't take that into consideration.
 
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