How do you *trash* a product that you've never tried??

RCBuddha said:
Go for it! I'm in the process of a PPP/PGP vs. ZAIO/Z2Pro (non ZFX'd) test as we speak on my hood....
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Not a fair test, because in the marketing, Ultima blows Zaino away. Not only in looks, but ease of use. We no longer need multiple steps to achieve maximum gloss, so a true test of the marketing would be PGP vs. 2 coats Z5pro/1 coat Z2pro/CS/Z8 wipe down. The marketing is directed into leading people to believe that the SAME or BETTER results of Zaino's confusing multi-step process can be achieve by one coat of Ultima, again I stress that I hope this is true.



Look at this picture as it shows One Ultima product bettering multiple steps from Zaino.



ultima-better-than-zaino.jpg




Or how about this quote from the site.



"I've used both [Zaino and Ultima] and used them side by side. Ultima blows it [Zaino] out of the water, there is no comparison." William H. Bonney



In this post, Bonney was talking about OPTIMUM. I can link you the post if you wish, but magically he is quoted, the work optimum is deleted and Zaino is installed. That is fraudlent and missleading advertising at best, and its no wonder that people are upset about this.
 
TH0001 said:
... most of the Zaino guys I know where excited to try Ultima (I'm talking the die hard Zaino guys), however the aggressive marketing turned many people off, right off the bat.
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The zealotry turns a lot of people off to Zaino, as well. How many people here have said they will never try Zaino due to the rabidness of the zealots? I was one of those people, too. I finally tried it and I think it's a great product, but I'm almost embarassed to admit it lest I be identified with some of the childish members bleating about "orchestrated attacks" and "underhanded" tactics, and who feel they need to berate other members who like different things.



BTW, a shill is someone who appears to be unaffiliated with a company or salesman, but in fact is. The shill is the guy who wins at 3-card Monte so the other people will step up to play.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
The zealotry turns a lot of people off to Zaino, as well. How many people here have said they will never try Zaino due to the rabidness of the zealots? I was one of those people, too. I finally tried it and I think it's a great product, but I'm almost embarassed to admit it lest I be identified with some of the childish members bleating about "orchestrated attacks" and "underhanded" tactics, and who feel they need to berate other members who like different things.



BTW, a shill is someone who appears to be unaffiliated with a company or salesman, but in fact is. The shill is the guy who wins at 3-card Monte so the other people will step up to play.
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Agreed on the zealotry, which kept me from Zaino for a long time as well! While, I use Zaino, I try not to be in that group (I hope I don't sound like I am).



Now that I know what a shill is, I was never trying to imply that Spoiled was affilated with Ultima or any other product line...
 
Seriously is there anyone on this board over 30??? I think that marketing scheme there is orchistrated by a bunch of 5th grade bullies. And if Zanio was/is the same way I can see how this quickly got to a "My wang is bigger than your wang" pissing match. How can the people that make and market Ulitma even think for half a second that was in any way shape or form anything remotely close to a good marketing scheme? Someone needs to go back to business basics in school and re-learn a few things.



Booo on bad marketing and people who obviously have way to much time and anger issues on their hands. Way to just flat out kill a (possibly) good product before it ever had a chance. you NEVER EVER slam your compition if your product is worthwhile. Let your product stand on it's own and people will notice. Slamming compition in ads is nothing short of a bad political stance mudslinging we have to deal with every 4 years in this country..... Sad... sad.... sad...
 
Setec Astronomy said:
The zealotry turns a lot of people off to Zaino, as well. How many people here have said they will never try Zaino due to the rabidness of the zealots? I was one of those people, too. I finally tried it and I think it's a great product, but I'm almost embarassed to admit it lest I be identified with some of the childish members bleating about "orchestrated attacks" and "underhanded" tactics, and who feel they need to berate other members who like different things.
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Exactly! I really like most of the Zaino products I have tried but I'd hate to be lumped in with the crowd on that other board. Plus, I realize that no one detailing company has every single product I need and even if they did, that doesn't mean each and every one of those products would be the absolute best.
 
TH0001 said:
Not a fair test, because in the marketing, Ultima blows Zaino away. Not only in looks, but ease of use. We no longer need multiple steps to achieve maximum gloss, so a true test of the marketing would be PGP vs. 2 coats Z5pro/1 coat Z2pro/CS/Z8 wipe down. The marketing is directed into leading people to believe that the SAME or BETTER results of Zaino's confusing multi-step process can be achieve by one coat of Ultima, again I stress that I hope this is true.
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How is prep/sealant vs prep/sealant not a fair comparison? Shall I strip everything back down and use CS vs. Ultima since both are WOWA? I don't care what the marketing says, I'm comparing Zaino's flagship product to Ultima's flagship product. Apples to apples, IMO.



I too, have friends in marketing, and after linking them the ad, all four of them told me that comparison advertising is STILL being used (note that I didn't give them any background on either product).



Notice how many ads say "as compared to the leading national brand". Or how about Net Zero comparing themselves to AOL? Remember the Pepsi Challenge? I don't think Pepsi was comparing themselves to RC Cola....



For all the money that Zaino die-hards have supposedly "saved" (why does that sound a lot like "I saved a bunch of money switching to Geico"?) why don't they go out and try the product? I mean, a money back guarantee, and they still won't at least try it? Fine, they don't like DavidB, and many have some sort of "Axe" to grind, so its a lot easier to try and pick holes in someone's advertisement, but I'm sure DavidB would refund them their money back, even if he knows who it is.



If you wannna talk about rabid Z fan-boys, just look at Roadfly's online car care forum. Last time I was there, they took Bence and a few others "to point" about FK1. I'm sure Bence will chime in on what happened, as I haven't checked the site recently.



Oh, and if anyone thinks I'm some sort of Ultima "Shill" I've got a $200 invoice that says I paid for my products. The only "free" product I have gotten from DavidB was a replacement for a bottle of interior shampoo that leaked in the box. Lynn and David can probably both verify that.
 
RCBuddha said:
How is prep/sealant vs prep/sealant not a fair comparison? Shall I strip everything back down and use CS vs. Ultima since both are WOWA? I don't care what the marketing says, I'm comparing Zaino's flagship product to Ultima's flagship product. Apples to apples, IMO.



I too, have friends in marketing, and after linking them the ad, all four of them told me that comparison advertising is STILL being used (note that I didn't give them any background on either product).



Notice how many ads say "as compared to the leading national brand". Or how about Net Zero comparing themselves to AOL? Remember the Pepsi Challenge? I don't think Pepsi was comparing themselves to RC Cola....



For all the money that Zaino die-hards have supposedly "saved" (why does that sound a lot like "I saved a bunch of money swithcing to Geico"?) why don't they go out and try the product? I mean, a money back guarantee, and they still won't at least try it? Fine, they don't like DavidB, and many have some sort of "Axe" to grind, so its a lot easier to try and pick holes in someone's advertisement, but I'm sure DavidB would refund them their money back, even if he knows who it is.



If you wannna talk about rabid Z fan-boys, just look at Roadfly's online car car forum. Last time I was there, they took Bence and a few others "to point" about FK1. I'm sure Bence will chime in on what happened, as I haven't checked the site recently.



Oh, and if anyone thinks I'm some sort of Ultima "Shill" I've got a $200 invoice that says I paid for my products. The only "free" product I have gotten from DavidB was a replacement for a bottle of interior shampoo that leaked in the box. Lynn and David can probably both verify that.
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I have never claimed to "save" a lot of money on Zaino, infact my product cost per vehicle is quite a bit higher then when I used Meguiars. I don't know any pro that would claim to save money, but I do charge more so its an even swap in that since.



You are right, I did trip up on my words, by saying this marketing isn't used anymore. I should have said it has been proven rather uneffective and many compaines choose different, more effective routes if looking for new cliental.



Your test is fair in what it is, but I was looking from the persepective of supporting the marketing claims. I will be very interested in your test, regarding its objectivity, though I think by tsome of the comments you made, you seem to at least have a distaste for either Zaino or its users. I will use what ever product allows me to serve my customers better, and I personally don't care who gets my money, as long as my customers are fully satisfied.



Zaino has a lot of marketing out there and the general perception on most boards is that Zaino is tops (I'm talking car sites, not detailing sites). I obviously use this to my advantage and have been able to market to enthusists, which is why I use Zaino now. But I will be trying Ultima as well and seeing if it stacks up to its claims and if so, and it does impress me and blows Zaino away, then you guys can look foward to a lot of Ferraris on this board with Ultima layered on them. It will be fun, IMO.
 
"Booo on bad marketing and people who obviously have way to much time and anger issues on their hands. Way to just flat out kill a (possibly) good product before it ever had a chance. you NEVER EVER slam your compition if your product is worthwhile. Let your product stand on it's own and people will notice. Slamming compition in ads is nothing short of a bad political stance mudslinging we have to deal with every 4 years in this country..... Sad... sad.... sad..."





I'm deleting my comments. the comments above are not mine.
 
Pennypacker said:
Regardless of how products are manufactured or by whom or what kind of marketing campaign is used, the original question was why would someone feel compelled to trash a product they've never used.



Fundamentally, the reason why is because their sense of self is wrapped up in the other product...
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Some good food for thought there, Pennypacker, but I somehow doubt that many people really want to get to the bottom of such thinking ;)



Nice post, and a good attempt at getting the thread back onto the original topic.
 
TH0001: I simply wont waist my time responding to the "us vs. them" that I didn't want this to be. Why don't you ask GregCavi about his contact with me in the beginning of this thread? He can enlighten you. You can call it thinly disguised if you want but it was obviously plain to see to me and many others. I asked for no names named and no fingers pointed. It was a question of the human nature. People take it like someone called there mom a [female dog] and said her kids were funny looking.



Accumulator said:
Some good food for thought there, Pennypacker, but I somehow doubt that many people really want to get to the bottom of such thinking ;)



Nice post, and a good attempt at getting the thread back onto the original topic.
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Thank you both for seeing what this was originally about. :clap:
 
wannafbody said:
you NEVER EVER slam your compition if your product is worthwhile. Let your product stand on it's own and people will notice.
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I guess Apple didn't hear about this rule when they started the very popular, and funny, slam campaign on the PC.
 
DavidB said:
I guess Apple didn't hear about this rule when they started the very popular, and funny, slam campaign on the PC.
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It did a pretty good job of increasing both their market and product desire. Apple as a company has a reputation for having some of the most clever marketing on the planet. It probably doesn't feel good to be on the receiving end of those ads but it was sure great as an Apple user.:)
 
TH0001 said:
In the meantime, you definetly have been pushing Ultima, and it is known that you beta tested it. It seems slightly ironic. How quickly tunes change, I suppose.
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Can you explain exactly what you mean here?
 
I'm not going to sign up for the other site just to read what's going on, but from my understanding so far and the marketing tactics of Ultima, I'm gonna have to side with the Zaino guys on this one. I haven't really seen anyone trash Ultima's products yet, just its marketing strategies. Keep in mind, I am not a Zaino user due to the zealots and their higher prices/smaller quantities.



Like Jakerooni mentioned, if you have an excellent product that the market wants, it can stand on its own. Look at Opti-Seal when it came out. It could have made bold statements about being better than Zaino Clear Seal, but that's not the route they chose. For Optimum, they priced their product smartly to win customers from their competition. Ultima seemed aggressively marketed from the moment I saw its rediculous prices. Talk about "shock and awe"!



Also, like TH001 mentioned, IIRC that quote by William H Bonney referred to Opti-Seal, and not Zaino.
 
BlackElantraGT said:
Ultima seemed aggressively marketed from the moment I saw its rediculous prices. Talk about "shock and awe"!



Also, like TH001 mentioned, IIRC that quote by William H Bonney referred to Opti-Seal, and not Zaino.
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When Ryan called me on my misquote, I fixed. My bad... I read it wrong.



In regards to the pricing... Give me a break. Have you looked at the price of a jar of Pinnacle or Zymol wax? Ultima PGP is priced ounce for ounce in the same range as Zaino CS.



If the price is out of your range, please, use other products. The fact of the matter is, the Ultima product is flying out the door.
 
argueing on the internet is like the special olympics, even if you win, you are still retarted...



looks like David is putting his money where is mouth is, he believes in his Ultima, cool, im sure Sal isnt all upset about it,



it is funny though when people get all in an uproar about car products.



lemme get some more popcorn, brb
 
wannafbody said:
Also, I don't understand why Ultima isn't compared directly with ZCS. After all they are directly competing products.
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Fine but then you can't use CS over Z2 or Z5. Make the comparison Ultima's polish and UPGP vs ZAIO and CS. Would you consider that to be a fair test then? I've got both Zaino products, anyone who wants to send me an ounce of the Ultima polish can and I can do a side by side test of both.



I think the point the ad is making is that you can use UPGP in place of Z2/Z5 and CS and still get a better look and better durability with only 1 product vs 2. The appearance part I would agree with but it won't be until early next year before I can say whether or not Ultima matches or exceeds Zaino's durability.



Just yesterday, I detailed a Lexus RX350 for a customer who has a nice collection of Zaino products he uses regularly. He said he'd prefer I use Zaino on the RX (it belongs to his daughter and is going to back to Houston and won't see as regular care as his own vehicles do) but he'd let me decide in the end what to use. I ended up using Zaino because I haven't had Opti-Seal or UPGP long enough to promise him they last as long as Zaino. I've had Opti-Seal on a few vehicles now since early April and it is holding up well at the nearly 5 month point but in my experience, Zaino will last 7-8 months. I have to give OS to November to know for sure that it will last that long. Do I think it will? Based on how it looks, feels and beads at the 5 month point. Probably. Do I know it for sure? No. Same deal with Ultima. No way can I make any durability promises on a product I've only been using 3 weeks.



I could also have gone with Werkstatt because I know it will last at least as long as Zaino but visually, there wouldn't have been enough improvement in appearance to be readily noticable so I chose to go with the products my customer was comfortable with.
 
BlackElantraGT said:
Keep in mind, I am not a Zaino user due to the zealots and their higher prices/smaller quantities.
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I dont care what i use, but ended up using zaino. I am not a nut case detailer, and dont want to slave away on my vehicles all the time. The price is justified, as i hardly ever have to do anything above a wash and z8 squirt, and im done.



Perception is reality, but the reality is , not everyone who uses zaino is a fanboy zealot. To deny yourself the experience of a product based on who uses it, or the marketing, is potentially creating a missed oppertunity to try something really excellent.



I think Davids marketing is similar to an up and coming prize fighter. Talks alot of crap hoping for a title shot. In the end he either ko's his opponent or is ko-ed. Time will tell.
 
Scottwax said:
Fine but then you can't use CS over Z2 or Z5. Make the comparison Ultima's polish and UPGP vs ZAIO and CS. Would you consider that to be a fair test then? I've got both Zaino products, anyone who wants to send me an ounce of the Ultima polish can and I can do a side by side test of both.
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Scott, if you want to do a fair side-by-side test and report your findings, I will send you the Ultima products. Out in the open, no benefit to you either way... let me have it between the eyes if you think Ultima sucks.
 
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