GM Quality Control

[imported_Aurora40]

That's *you* taking what I said and making it into something else. No need to check facts. I said it was better than the motor it replaced.

I apologize if you feel I took your statement out of context. That was not my intent. I see that you said two things, one is it's better than the motor it replaced, and two that GM should apply this idea of a complete redesign to all their other products. My point was that GM can already beat the 4.2L I6 without a complete redesign of anything. Their "low-tech" 5.3L smallblock bests the "high-tech" I6 practically across the board. Using the 5.3 instead of developing a clean sheet motor means lower cost, improved durability, more power in this case, and probably most importantly, development money to be spent elsewhere.



Again, though, I don't dislike these engines. My mom has a Trailblazer with the I6. It is strong and torquey and smooth. It's a nice motor. It's just the 5.3L is a nice motor too, does all those things, and does some better.



I believe in the long run, GM will be best off by making the best things they can, not by pursuing arbitray goals like high specific output or a journalistic definition of "high-tech". If it works well, then the means used to get there are somewhat irrelevant. GM's pushrod motors work well by any real-world standard you use to measure them, weight, size, fuel economy, power, torque, cost, durability... I believe the same is true of their cars and trucks. Make them good, and eventually they will sell themselves. I of course hope that GM's products only continue to get better. As someone who enjoys driving, I hope all cars only continue to get better.

 

[SpoiledMan]

Anybody got a beer?

 

[imported_truzoom]

I think we just need to leave it up to time to see how things turn out. You guys could have been detailing instead of writing up these replies! Geez!

 

[Scottwax]

IIRC the outgoing 5.0 was as 210HP and the incoming 4.6 was 215. I think the Mustang guys are pretty happy with what the 4.6 became.

They weren't at first because the first 4.6 Mustangs were slower than the 5.0s.

 

[SpoiledMan]

None of that this week for me. Rain is promised and I have the kids at home this week so that they can enjoy what they got for Christmas.

 

[SpoiledMan]

They weren't at first because the first 4.6 Mustangs were slower than the 5.0s.

They were lots of fun to play with in my GS-R that's for sure!



Something I just remembered. I *think* I remember some engine control issues with those cars that retarded timing in a huge way during gearshifts that was fixable/fixed in following years.

 

[imported_Aurora40]

Well, Honda's not in trouble now are they? GM needs to do more things right in the bread and butter department but it's clear that you don't see or care about that but only what other companies are doing.



No, Honda didn't race a quad 4 they used their own motor. It's also funny that now that Honda is in the IRL game that nobody else wants to play. When they came and raced against the Illmore's, oops, I meant Chevy turbo 8's in Indy Car racing in the 90's they stumbled at first but then became the dominant force until they stopped development in their last year of participation and Toyota got a title. What year was it that Chevy dominated F1?

Apparently I missed this post.



I'm not sure GM has ever participated in Formula 1. I could be mistaken, though. Interesting you mentioned Ilmor, as that is who makes Honda's IRL engine.



Also, you brought up Honda (not me) when you said if they made a Viper, it would have 800hp. Honda doesn't even make a 300hp motor, so I think it's fair to question this.

No matter where you put the Solstice it's going to likely be in trouble. More power will mean more money and more competition. Right now it will have the cult following of the Miata to deal with.



If you'd like to pick on the oldest Honda motor and it's not even the most powerful then go ahead. Just keep in mind that you're picking on something that was designed in the 80's and saw very little in updates over the years. How about a J series motor? Yeah, all ULEV all the way to 300HP and no forced induction from 3 liters to 3.5 liters. Why should they continue to be complacent with the 3800? Develop it and make it smoother. Have you driven one of Honda's, Nissans or Toyota's V6 cars? You might not want to be seen in a Honda dealer but you can just drive a V6 Saturn Vue. Tell me all about it when you come back and yes, I have driven 3800 equipped cars both SC and atmospheric.

What car does Honda make with 300hp? Actually, what Honda makes more power than the NSX (Edit: ah, just the RL. 10hp more and .3L bigger. Extrapolated out, that would mean at that rate Honda could make a 440hp 8L Viper )? The motor grew in displacement, so it has changed some since 1991. But that's the only comparable motor to a Corvette. What other sports car does Honda make? The weight and economy comparisons still seem relevant. If you don't feel so, how about the fact that my even older ZR-1 is rated 1mpg better on the highway than the 2006 NSX? And my ancient GM car is heavier and more powerful.

Since I don't see ANY logic in your idea of putting to 2 liter motors together and what you get from that I'll take a pass on that.

Again, this stems from your Viper statement. The fact that it is easy to have higher specific output the lower your horsepower target is. A 100cc go-kart can probably make 20hp with no real technology at all. This isn't impressive, and doesn't mean it scales up to a 1,600hp Viper anymore than Honda could scale their S2000 specific output up to Viper proportions.

IIRC the outgoing 5.0 was as 210HP and the incoming 4.6 was 215. I think the Mustang guys are pretty happy with what the 4.6 became.

You speak for Mustang guys too? The 4.6 was a godsend. To get to the 400hp mark from it, they only had to add a blower and an iron block. Think it gets much heavier than an iron-blocked DOHC motor with a blower? The Cobra weighed a whopping 320 lbs more than a GT in 2004. GM's smallblock gets 400hp easy enough. Better fuel economy too... Even now for 2005, the 4.6L Ford only makes 300hp. Map that specific output to a 5.7L motor, and you've only got 370hp. GM's pushrod small block topped that specific output in 2001.

 

[SpoiledMan]

Apparently I missed this post.



I'm not sure GM has ever participated in Formula 1. I could be mistaken, though. Interesting you mentioned Ilmor, as that is who makes Honda's IRL engine.

You made a post that seems to have gone astray or something. It mentioned all of GM's dominant racing series. You mentioned F1 and to my knowledge they were never a part of it.

Also, you brought up Honda (not me) when you said if they made a Viper, it would have 800hp. Honda doesn't even make a 300hp motor, so I think it's fair to question this.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that it would make more than 500 HP that's for sure. For the 300 HP 3.5 liter 6, please take a look at the Acura site. The J35 in the RL makes 300 HP.

What car does Honda make with 300hp? Actually, what Honda makes more power than the NSX? The motor grew in displacement, so it has changed some. But that's the only comparable motor to a Corvette. What other sports car does Honda make? The weight and economy comparisons still seem relevant. If you don't feel so, how about the fact that my even older ZR-1 is rated 1mpg better on the highway than the 2006 NSX? And my ancient GM car is heavier and more powerful.

There you go again taking pot shots at the old stuff. Is that rating with or without shift intervention? Again, see the RL for the 300HP, the TL for 270HP and the lowly Accord V6 for 240 HP. These engines range from 3.5 down to 3.2 liters. Hey, where your hybrid cars?

Again, this stems from your Viper statement. The fact that it is easy to have higher specific output the lower your horsepower target is. A 100cc go-kart can probably make 20hp with no real technology at all. This isn't impressive, and doesn't mean it scales up to a 1,600hp Viper anymore than Honda could scale their S2000 specific output up to Viper proportions.

Didn't say that it scales and if it did it would be 960 HP.

You speak for Mustang guys too? The 4.6 was a godsend. To get to the 400hp mark from it, they only had to add a blower and an iron block. Think it gets much heavier than an iron-blocked DOHC motor with a blower? The Cobra weighed a whopping 320 lbs more than a GT in 2004. GM's smallblock gets 400hp easy enough. Better fuel economy too... Even now for 2005, the 4.6L Ford only makes 300hp. Map that specific output to a 5.7L motor, and you've only got 370hp. GM's pushrod small block topped that specific output in 2001.

This part is funny cause those guys are still nuts about their cars and the Mustang STILL LIVES.

 

[SpoiledMan]

(Edit: ah, just the RL. 10hp more and .3L bigger. Extrapolated out, that would mean at that rate Honda could make a 440hp 8L Viper )?

Bad math, I get ~685 HP. ***EDIT: I see how you come to that lame conclusion now*** Try this, compare the GM 6's to the others 6's and the 4's to the 4's. Ahh, no comparison.



By the way, Illmor was the builder for the Chevy Indy V8 before Mercedes bought them. Honda used Comptech to oversee the development and maintenance program for their Indy V8's but it was at least done at their direction. Other than a name plate, neither GM nor Ford had much at all to do with those race engines. Once again, they were late to the game but came in and whooped that ***!



I'm not sure about their current F1 program *but* information gathered from this program is to be used in an engine to come. Wonder which one?



Again I state(Scott and a few others have also) that the problem with GM is that they can't/don't compete where it matters. Me and my family don't fit into a Vette. I'm not really feeling the styling of the Caddy's (if it's going to look like that it better be fast as hell, think M5 or M6 BMW's). The rest of the cars don't attract me as a buyer and depreciate like boulders falling off a cliff. They need to bring it to the Accord, Camry and it looks like the Ford 500 is going to make a nice showing. Don't spew out the they sell the most cars stuff as the rental car company's buy a big chunk of those and we're forced to drive them when we rent a car. They need to compete competently with the Civic, Corolla, Mazda 3 and Focus and they simply don't. The G6, yeah they're paying people to take those already and it doesn't matter what the mileage is, how much HP/TQ it has either. Nobody wants to look at it or be seen in it or something. :nervous: Hyundai is stepping up to the plate with a good offering in the Sonata. I've seen that Buick Lacrosse commercial so many times today that I want to jump off my front porch but I've only seen a few on the street.



Kill the my engine is badder than yours talk. Why isn't there something else offered off the very good rear drive platform they have now with the CTS? Stretch that puppy and put an LS6 in it. Can you say Impala SS? At least then the moniker will have some street cred.

 

[imported_Aurora40]

You made a post that seems to have gone astray or something. It mentioned all of GM's dominant racing series. You mentioned F1 and to my knowledge they were never a part of it.

Yup, was a mistake. It was there for about 2 seconds, I was thinking incorrectly.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that it would make more than 500 HP that's for sure. For the 300 HP 3.5 liter 6, please take a look at the Acura site. The J35 in the RL makes 300 HP.

Perhaps you should look at their site. It makes 290hp. They had to downrate it and several motors due to more accurate SAE requirements.

The G6, yeah they're paying people to take those already and it doesn't matter what the mileage is, how much HP/TQ it has either. Nobody wants to look at it or be seen in it or something. :nervous: ... I've seen that Buick Lacrosse commercial so many times today that I want to jump off my front porch but I've only seen a few on the street.

Finally some facts...

Kill the my engine is badder than yours talk.

All I was doing was responding to comments made. I sure didn't start out calling any engine lame (Subaru comparison to the Impy SS), or saying who could make a higher powered engine (Viper by Honda). I guess don't go down that road, or don't go down it unless you've got some facts to take with you, if you don't want to discuss it. :nixweiss



You sort of lost me with the F1 stuff, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. And I don't believe I ever said GM doesn't need to do anything or that they aren't in a bad situation. What I said is that it's not unrecoverable, and that they do have some good qualities.



I hope you aren't taking anything badly, I certainly meant no ill will. I usually enjoy these discussions with you, and enjoyed this one. I've said about all I can say, so I'll call it quits here. :wavey

 

[SpoiledMan]

Uhh, you don't have any facts either. You argue what you *think* and I what I *think.* What's the difference. If you reread both of our posts we both speak of what *could* be. You continue to watch GM sink while they make better Vette's and I'll keep watching as Toyota and Honda kick them in the *** with the Civic, Camry, Accord, Corolla, Rav 4, CRV and the host of hybrid cars that don't exist at GM. Welcome to the future.

 

[imported_Aurora40]

Uhh, you don't have any facts either. You argue what you *think* and I what I *think.* What's the difference. If you reread both of our posts we both speak of what *could* be. You continue to watch GM sink while they make better Vette's and I'll keep watching as Toyota and Honda kick them in the *** with the Civic, Camry, Accord, Corolla, Rav 4, CRV and the host of hybrid cars that don't exist at GM. Welcome to the future.

When did I speculate that a car can't be given away? When did I trash-talk any car company? I believe I've provided several facts, and of course made some opinionated interpretations of them.



What do hybrids have to do with anything? But since you mention them, you might be interested to know GM has been producing hybrid diesel busses for several years. They have had a much bigger impact on fuel savings than all the Priuses out there have. Saving gas on an already-efficient economy car is hardly the way to make the biggest dent.



Welcome to the future?? seriously?

 

[SpoiledMan]

It's not speculation it's obvious. Discounted helps them move. End the discounts and the salesmen are in a worse situation than they were before. I don't have to trash a car company it's already doing that to itself.



When those hybrid busses start cruising the streets of LA to help out with the smog then I'll give them the props for it but did you think about what that does for perception to be able to go out and buy a hybrid and put it in *your* driveway? Think GM could use some of that good perception? BTW, the hybrid stuff is spilling over into the luxury cars at Lexus and the mid size cars at Toyota and Honda. Who does the motoring public get the better perception of? I'm sure it's GM so don't even bother to respond.

 

[Scottwax]

When those hybrid busses start cruising the streets of LA to help out with the smog

What about all those hybrid car's batteries when they eventually need to be replaced?



Considering how clean new cars are compared to even 15 years ago, improving traffic flow (ie better traffic light timing) would probably reduce emissions more than hybrids will.

 

[SpoiledMan]

Good question Scott and to be honest it's something that I had not really given lots of thought to.



In a city like this, you can do all the timing you want and you'll still be sitting somewhere as we can't all move at once. Left turn pockets overflow and block other lanes clogging traffic. Next time you're in LA, I'll take you and show you some good moving rush hour traffic and then you can see what happens where the flow HAS to stop. Dallas might have the worse traffic but we move a lot more people.

 

[SilverLexus]

Considering how clean new cars are compared to even 15 years ago, improving traffic flow (ie better traffic light timing) would probably reduce emissions more than hybrids will.

I bet you are right. The reputed gas mileage improvements are not as real either...often 25-30% below the EPA rating.