Girls in the boyscouts eh???

House of Wax

Active member
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/23/u...latest-to-seek-to-become-boy-scouts.html?_r=1


SANTA ROSA, Calif. — Five girls wearing makeshift scout uniforms stood before top Boy Scout brass this month and made an announcement: We want in.

“I want to be a Boy Scout,” Allie Westover, 13, told a panel of men in khaki uniforms weighted by pins and patches. She dropped a scout application in front of them. Then so did her sister, Skyler, and three friends: Ella Jacobs, Daphne Mortenson and Taylor Alcozer.

In a year in which gender roles in traditional American institutions have undergone major changes and challenges, a fight in Northern California over joining the Boy Scouts is among the most recent points of contention. These girls — the latest of many over the decades who have sought to become Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts instead of Brownies andxGirl Scouts— say they would rather be camping and tying knots than selling cookies.

And they say shifting attitudes are on their side: Bathrooms are going unisex in deference to transgender people, the Supreme Court has redefined marriage to include same-sex couples, and even the Boy Scouts have softened their stance on xxx scouts and scout leaders.

In this liberal-minded community, about two hours north of San Francisco, a group of girls ages 10 and 13 who have named themselves the Unicorns want to formally join the Boy Scouts, the 105-year-old organization that has long considered itself the cradle of American male leadership. None of them want to be boys — they just want to play like them.

“Because we’re girls we can’t participate with boys?” said Ella, 10. “When we get into the real world, we’re going to have to work with other people who are, like, not just girls.”

But they face stiff legal obstacles: Among other factors, Title IX, the federal law that prohibits discrimination by sex, carves out an exception for the Boy Scouts, allowing them to exclude members based on gender.

Indeed, even as the Boy Scouts have accepted xxx members, the organization has guarded its boys-only ethos. While allowing girls to participate in some affiliated programs, it keeps them out of the core scouting curriculum that has built a reputation as the most rigorous youth development program in the nation.

Danelle Jacobs, the leader of a group of girls who want to join the Boy Scouts, prepared the girls for the scout meeting.

“We understand that the values and the lessons of scouting are attractive to the entire family,” the national Boy Scouts organization said in an email to reporters. “However, Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are year-round programs for boys and young men.”

The Unicorns began to consider themselves Boy Scouts last fall, after they enrolled in a skills-building course,Learning for Life, that is affiliated with the organization and is offered to boys and girls. Several Unicorns had tried the Girl Scouts but found the experience too sedate: rest time and whispering instead of playing tag and lighting fires.

A spokeswoman for the Girl Scouts of Northern California disagreed with that assessment. “Outdoor experience has really always been a hallmark of what we do,” said the spokeswoman, Nikki Van Ausdall. “If they want to come back to join us, we’re thrilled to have them.”

Led by Ella’s mother, Danelle Jacobs, 43, the Unicorns moved quickly from the course lessons to more formal Boy Scout activities: earning badges, hiking alongside boy groups and buying uniforms that mimicked those worn by boys.

The girls, who call themselves the Unicorns, gave their names to a stenographer at the Boy Scout meeting.

In the spring, the Unicorns placed second in a major scouting competition called camporee, where they went up against dozens of Boy Scout groups judged for grit and spirit.

“We can do the same things boys can — proven from camporee,” Ella said in an interview at her home. She waved a fistful of ribbons: first place in team building, second in backpacking, third in slingshot. “There’s no really ‘girl things’ or ‘boy things.’”

Her 12-year-old brother, Evan, said he was “very scared” the girls would sweep the competition next year.

But expanding the definition of “Boy Scout” is alarming some parents, who voiced concerns about the prospect of shared tents, the erosion of valuable boys-only time and the possibility that girls — who already outperform boys in many areas — might start to snap up all the leadership positions.

The girls returned to school after the meeting. Local Boy Scout leaders said they would forward the girls' request to join to the national office.


“I have sons,” said Jennifer Masterson, 54, a scout leader in the same region as the Unicorns who said she felt uneasy about the idea of coed scouting. “Would I want a girl sleeping in my son’s tent? No.”

Another Northern California scout leader, Randy Huffman, 56, said he felt similarly uncomfortable. “Maybe their approach should have been to go to the Girl Scouts and say: Instead of painting our nails and clipping our — whatever they do — to do archery and do climbing. Going through that process.”

This fall, at least one person contacted top Boy Scout officials to report that the girls here had invaded campouts and competitions. On Oct. 1, the local Boy Scout council barred the girls from participating in further activities, telling them that they had gone beyond the lessons permitted in the life-skills program and that the organization’s charter made it clear that “Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting and Varsity Scouting are for boys.”

A meeting was called for Nov. 13 to help the Unicorns understand the decision. It was there, at the local Boy Scout headquarters, that the girls confronted leaders and asked to be made full-fledged Boy Scouts.

The response from the men on the panel was swift: They would forward the girls’ requests to the national office, but said they had no local authority to admit them.

“The rules and regulations, the bylaws, don’t allow that,” said Rodney Mangus, 65, one of three top officials in the Boy Scout area that includes Santa Rosa.

Another official, Herb Williams, 79, said he supported the idea of girls in scouting, but only with approval from above. “Without process, without rules and regulation, there’s chaos,” he said.

Allie, one of the Unicorns, responded after the meeting: “I’d like to see them standing up like they did for the xxx scouts and the xxx leaders.” She noted that several of the officials had been early supporters of xxx people in scouting.

The Unicorns are hardly the first girls to try to join the Boy Scouts. Carrie Crosman of Texas andxCarla Schwenk of Oregon tried in the 1970s. Marystephanie Constantikes of Oklahoma tried in the 1980s. And Margo Menkes, Katrina Yeawand seven girls from California tried in the 1990s. None could persuade Boy Scout officials to approve their membership.

“The conflict about admitting girls goes back even further than the conflict over admitting xxxs,” said Richard Ellis, a professor of politics at Willamette University in Salem, Ore., and the author of the book “Judging the Boy Scouts of America.”

The conflict in California coincides with a trend of declining membership in the Boy Scouts for at least a decade. About 2.4 million boys participated in Boy Scout activities in 2014, down from 2.6 million the year before, and some in Santa Rosa cited girl recruitment as a possible solution.

“Those programs have all been written for squirrelly little boys that run around and get crazy,” said Mr. Mangus, the local Boy Scout official, adding that he thought the curriculum would need to be rewritten if girls were admitted.

At the same time, Mr. Mangus said, “the Boy Scouts are not daft about what’s happening in society.” As far as admitting girls in the future, he said, “Who knows?”
 
I fell bad for those girls, I mean with out the boy scouts I guess they are not allowed to learn how to tie knots or go camping. Oh wait that's wrong any one can do that if they want. If they don't receive any public funding it shouldn't matter what they are doing if they are not intentionally hurting anyone.
 
I read that whole article....

Pardon me if I missed it, but what about the Girl Scouts??? I didn't see that mentioned or addressed.

I think all the girls should join the Boy Scouts and all the boys should join the Girl Scouts. Boys should be required to wear skirts. All girls will have to use the boys bathroom. The scout master must identify as transgender.

Also, please join my "Barbies for Boys" movement... Facebook site will be up shortly.

Thank you.
 
I think it would be better to create a new Scouts group that has its own special rules if they want mixed sexes.
 
Fear not, a federal judge will be along shortly to mandate that the Boyscouts of America must accept any and all applicants regardless of age or gender
 
Or, as one boy scout leader mentioned in the article....if they don't like what the girl scout troop is doing, make changes to what they do
 
Or Merge the 2 entities into just the Scouts, from the sounds of it the memberships are dropping year over year. It may be fiscally smart to join forces and share resources going forward or risk going under. But thats their choice as organizations die or adapt.
 
I fell bad for those girls, I mean with out the boy scouts I guess they are not allowed to learn how to tie knots or go camping. Oh wait that's wrong any one can do that if they want. If they don't receive any public funding it shouldn't matter what they are doing if they are not intentionally hurting anyone.

-AND-

House of Wax said:
Or, as one boy scout leader mentioned in the article....if they don't like what the girl scout troop is doing, make changes to what they do

Yeah..am I missing something here? Well, maybe it's just the whole "gotta have drama!"-factor. Otherwise who cares what the Girl/Boy label is? Boy Scouts do basket-weaving (or at least there was a Merit Badge for it back when I was in BSA), why can't Girl Scouts do [whatever]?
 
Only 1 test to check qualification, stand back from the toilet 18" while standing on 2 feet, if you get it all in there your in. This world is getting more stupid by the second.

Dave
 
This is from the leftover grandmothers who raised kids to embrace "Women's Lib", remember??
And this same movement broke up many a happy marriage in the quest for Women's Lib..
But what were they needing to be liberated to or from ???

I think its just nutty to have the girl scouts want to be in the boy scouts anyway..

Boys need their time with other boys to learn to how work together and do stuff and NOT be distracted by girls, geez......

And girls need the same time away from boys to just do other things, learn other things, with girls too...

Are the girls really want to go on major camp outs at elevation where its super cold and all that stuff too???

You are right, its getting too crazy out there...
Dan F
 
I am just really tired of all this political correctness. Let them change the Girl Scouts and leave the Boy Scouts alone. People need to use some common sense.
 
You think it's bad now? Wait another 5 years "IF" we get a democrat in the President seat! Now I am not saying a republican will save us from all things BUT someone like Cruz will not be so "sensitive" to all the political correctness crap goin on, at least I hope he would not. Trump will insult a world leader at the wrong time.....just watch for that happening.

So, what's the problem here?

Easy answer...the lines that sharply divided "wrong from right" and "Truth from false" have been erased by a thought process that states, "There are no absolutes". It was slowly taught in schools and crept into media. Those students became teachers and passed on or taught a stronger version of "all inclusive" ideology. Now we have the proverbial "chickens coming home to roost" as even some liberals can't believe the stupidity of college kids and their demands.

They lack severe critical thinking. Who else can claim they want to abolish "free speech" while using "free speech" to do so? Who else but morons can claim to get rid of the voting process by way of voting??

Who else but stupid indoctrinated young kids want everything for free yet can't explain how things are paid for in a real grown up world?

Young kids who are seeking to be lawyers, going after bad criminals or an unjust and corrupt corporation feel they need a "safe space" to get away from the bad boogey conservative monster that is speaking at their university. So they are given coloring books, playdoh and Starbucks to calm them down. Sorry, that's not teaching them anything but how to be a fricken sissy.

So more and more anything and everything that separates male and female MUST be knocked down. These kids are pressured into this from adults. No young girl on her own is gonna look at the Boyscouts and say...."Golly gee mom, how come I can't be a Boyscout? Let's get together and demand they let girls in thru a class action lawsuit!" So from my view I blame this on ignorant parents, not the kids. Let girls be girls, boys be boys. Stop messing around with the way it's supposed to be.
 
You think it's bad now? Wait another 5 years "IF" we get a democrat in the President seat! Now I am not saying a republican will save us from all things BUT someone like Cruz will not be so "sensitive" to all the political correctness crap goin on, at least I hope he would not. Trump will insult a world leader at the wrong time.....just watch for that happening.

So, what's the problem here?

Easy answer...the lines that sharply divided "wrong from right" and "Truth from false" have been erased by a thought process that states, "There are no absolutes". It was slowly taught in schools and crept into media. Those students became teachers and passed on or taught a stronger version of "all inclusive" ideology. Now we have the proverbial "chickens coming home to roost" as even some liberals can't believe the stupidity of college kids and their demands.

They lack severe critical thinking. Who else can claim they want to abolish "free speech" while using "free speech" to do so? Who else but morons can claim to get rid of the voting process by way of voting??

Who else but stupid indoctrinated young kids want everything for free yet can't explain how things are paid for in a real grown up world?

Young kids who are seeking to be lawyers, going after bad criminals or an unjust and corrupt corporation feel they need a "safe space" to get away from the bad boogey conservative monster that is speaking at their university. So they are given coloring books, playdoh and Starbucks to calm them down. Sorry, that's not teaching them anything but how to be a fricken sissy.

So more and more anything and everything that separates male and female MUST be knocked down. These kids are pressured into this from adults. No young girl on her own is gonna look at the Boyscouts and say...."Golly gee mom, how come I can't be a Boyscout? Let's get together and demand they let girls in thru a class action lawsuit!" So from my view I blame this on ignorant parents, not the kids. Let girls be girls, boys be boys. Stop messing around with the way it's supposed to be.


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Well, I won't go so far as to be critical of the Woman's Lib/Gender Equality movement. Back a few decades ago a whole lotta women had it *very* tough, especially in the business world. Out-and-out rape wasn't at all unusual, let alone uncommon. Never mind stuff like equal pay for equal work or maternity leave or or or. It was a nasty world for working women; even as a kid I could see what was going on.

And I for one *do* believe that females can do all sorts of physically demanding stuff and that girls should know how to do all that "boy stuff" just as every guy oughta know how to do "girl stuff". Self-reliance starts with being able to do whatever needs doing. I've learned plenty of guy-stuff from women and my wife has learned plenty of women's-work stuff from me.

Heh heh, I'm quite certain that my beliefs can be equally offensive to people on both sides of most any argument ;)
 
So more and more anything and everything that separates male and female MUST be knocked down. These kids are pressured into this from adults. No young girl on her own is gonna look at the Boyscouts and say...."Golly gee mom, how come I can't be a Boyscout? Let's get together and demand they let girls in thru a class action lawsuit!" So from my view I blame this on ignorant parents, not the kids. Let girls be girls, boys be boys. Stop messing around with the way it's supposed to be.

That's great blaming the Parents. As old as I am I distinctly remember the "Don't spank your kids, sit them down and talk to them" routine. I have stated for years that it seemed to me that was the beginning of the end. I have not really noticed the talking doing anything, a very sore bottom that you could barely sit on definately woke you up to realize right and wrong, of course now it would be child abuse. People use to value others property and if your kid bounced a football off your vehicle there was he** to pay. Not anymore though as you are the bad guy if you complain of someone's kid doing said actions. Society is in the toilet and the Tidy bowl boat has sunk.

Dave
 
It seems to me that we have gotten to a point where groups of people can't start/have/maintain an organization that doesn't emcompass all/everyone. The thought that goes through my mind is why can't we have a group of people that are interested in cars/whatever (insert any interest) that doesn't need to worry about what we have to offer those who aren't part of that group. Can't we have a golf organization whose charter doesn't take into acount tennis enthusiasts? We've made some real headway in many areas when it comes to creating a culture that is considerate of race, religion, nationalities, and cultures but it is apparant from my viewpoint that there is a line that we have crossed.
 
Dave,
Who else can it be but the Parents of children that have the greatest influence on them - or should - have that anyway...
And I also believe that too many Parents think its "cute" for little Cary to dress all adult-like with make up, etc., when she is still a child..

There has been a time for awhile now, that Parents, the adults, give their children all the wrong advice, feedback, or even worse, nothing - and the kids then have to rely on what other kids do or tell them.

Then you have have some wacked out teachers telling their classes - "if your Parents, hit you or punish you, etc., its ok to call the Child Protective Services on them"....

Im still of the persuasion that a good swat on the butt does more good than harm, and I have never read in the Bible where it says "Its now ok to let little Johnny act out his aggressions on his little sister, friends, heck yeah, even his Parents, and you must applaud and award gifts to little Johnny for this"...

If we have been taught for awhile now to do things in Moderation, why are we not insuring that children are included in this and are also doing things in Moderation??

There are still people in the this world - all across this world - who still have the values you speak of... They are just harder to find in a world that grows increasingly more selfish, cold hearted and angry.

Probably the best solution is to put the Girl Scouts in charge of listening to all the complaints they have from these girls, look at the Charter they have since the beginning, discuss at length, what would be the best thing for the Girls Scouts globally, measure how many complaints they have, and go forward from there...

Perhaps the girls who want to be tomboys or whatever some girls go through, etc., can get together (because there must be thousands of them, right?), get their Parents to organize rallies, speaking engagements, etc., for them, AFTER the girls go out and raise the money needed to forward their "I wanna' be a BoyScout NOW" campaign, and see how far that takes them????

I speak from the experience of my 2 daughters, and my 2 step-daughters, and I can tell you that they liked the Brownies and Girl Scouts just fine until they started liking Boys, and there went the berets and green uniforms, our pick up truck loads of cookies yearly to sell, etc... Gone, done; we like boys now and dont want to spend time singing kum-ba-ya around the campfire, Dad... :)
Dan F
 
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