First time with a rotary - frustration, reflection and admiration

O

OlofM

New member
I just want to share my thoughts, refections and also my admiration while working for the first time with a rotary. (I hope this incoherent rant will make some sense.)

After doing a couple of cars with a combination of Menzerna and Cyclo I decided to purchase a rotary. The amount of effort (and time) spent on each car when using the Cyclo without getting the results I wanted was killing me. New and better tools had to be the answer!

So I bought a rotary ("Flex"), some more Menzerna and a couple of panels to practice on from the junkyard. I spent several nights practicing (actually trying to ruin the paint on the panels).

Trying to ruin the paint with the rotary was actually an idea I picked up in a thread from a fellow DC. Great idea! I learned alot that way, for example keep the rotary MOVING and be CAREFUL with edges.

Today I started work on my wife's car. The amount of effort (and time) I've spent on each panel with the rotary is unbelievable. I've spent as much time on half my car just with the rotary as some fellow DC spend on an entire detail. I was ready to give up after a several hours, with my confidence in rock bottom...

I left my tools in the garage and had dinner with my family. After dinner I went back to the garage. One half of the car looked like crap and the other half looked decent. The problem was that the decent half was the untouched half of the car - not the "before after" I was hoping for... But then something happened.

I decided to let the rotary be and do a pass with the Cyclo over the half I'd used the rotary on. I used Menzerna FPII and suddenly things were looking better, alot better.

It's taking me just as long as before (if not even longer), but the results are better than ever. I'm so proud!

As I write this I feel even more respect and admiration for those of you (Anthony Orosco, Clean Dean, GSRStilez just to name a few) who get those awesome results I see everyday on this forum.

I've come to understand that there is NO WAY I'm going to achieve those results just by purchasing some tools and spending hours reading threads on this forum (but it will help).

As always, it takes time and effort to master an art. My hat is off!
 
Congrats! I know it can be frustrating to spend hours on something and then have it look like a waste of time.

Are you a pro? I'm just doing my car, family, and friends from time to time, so for me the PC is all I was willing to get into mechanically. No way I'm gonna risk a rotary or anything that powerful. If I can't get rid of it using acryllics, waxes, SSR's, and the PC, let 'em take it to a pro, I say!! lol :brick

Did you notice THAT much of an improvement over a PC? Were your cars that bad that you really needed it? I guess if you're a pro, the answer might be yes. For me, even if a rotary would do alot more, my "clients" are happy with the waxes and polishes and cleaning. In fact, so far I only use the PC on older cars where I'm using the SSR's...haven't used anything but 1 pad with the PC, and haven't used the PC with polish, acryllics, or sealants of any kind (not sure I'd save any time or do a better job than by hand, so why risk it?).

Anyway, congrats and continued good luck.
 
There's definitely a big difference between a rotary ,cyclo and PC. I'm frustrated I have cars too good to practice on and a pair of scrap fender can only get you to practice so far. Of course aside from mastering not splattering polish and burning paint, it takes time to perfect never causing more marring/swirls and holograms. Have to master the speed of the rotary itself, the speed at which you polish, the amount of polish used, adjusted for specific polish to specific polish and knowing when to stop polishing, wet polishing.

I think a major key is to have the proper amount of confidence in yourself as well, don't get too bold, it will backfire, I already burned paint by thinking :eek: I was doing just fine and don't be so afraid or go so slow because you'll wind up not breaking down the polish correctly and/or causing defects.

I got to get back out there and practice some more even if it means polishing off all the paint from those fenders through multiple passes of proper, *corect* polishing :D :bigups
 
What exactly is "burnt paint?" And is the rotary that much more dangerous that you can do damage versus a PC just by sticking in the same spot for a few extra seconds?

Glad I just bought the PC. I may not even be doing my SSR's correctly, but at least I know I 'aint doing any damage.
 
Yes, especially if you tilt the pad and/or doing so with a wool pad :eek: That's how I burnt the paint. The pro detailer was doing the same and looked straightforward enough. No matter what pad you're using you really ought to keep it flat as much as you can. If you crank that thing up past 2000rpm you'll probably burn the paint fast as well.
Burn paint is basically a spot where the paint has literally worn away down to the metal due to the heat and friction of the speed of the pad/polish

PC often times just can't cut it (no pun intended). The Cyclo seemsto be a little more aggressive and serves my needs but the rotary really needsto be respected, but not necessarily feared, just requires some practice really before you use it on a vehicle you care about. In other words, the rotary is not idiot proof.
 
I found one of the best "baby steps" to take when learning how to use a rotary was buying a couple tufted LC 8" pads.

I'm sure you can still cause serious paint damage with these pads but they are far more forgiving than wool pads and my results were excellent.

I did my Dad's black '93 Mercury that never gets hand washed or waxed and
I used Pinnacle Advanced swirl remover with a yellow tufted pad & Pinnacle swirl remover with a white tufted pad.

I probably could have gone right to LSP but I used a PC to apply FPII & the surface was as good as I was going to get it.

I doubt a PC would have been able to achieve the same results with the same products.
 
HondaMan said:
Congrats! I know it can be frustrating to spend hours on something and then have it look like a waste of time.

Are you a pro? I'm just doing my car, family, and friends from time to time, so for me the PC is all I was willing to get into mechanically. No way I'm gonna risk a rotary or anything that powerful. If I can't get rid of it using acryllics, waxes, SSR's, and the PC, let 'em take it to a pro, I say!!
Click to expand...

I'm not a pro, I just work on my own cars. If I'd done work on somebody elses car I would've waited with the rotary. When doing work on my own car I'm willing to take more risks (and the expense plus shame of having it repainted).

HondaMan said:
Did you notice THAT much of an improvement over a PC? Were your cars that bad that you really needed it?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's a BIG difference (and yes the car was in a sorry state). My guess is that a pro would be able to get similar results with any tool, but then again I'm not a pro.
 
I think unless some of us here are pros or quasi-pros, there is just too much risk to using anything but a PC. Folks who are doing this daily or weekly might be able to keep all the things straight in their head as far as "dos" and "don'ts" with a rotary, etc. Me? I have enough trouble keeping note of which MF is for applying and which is for cleaning....which pad is for cutting, which for polishing, etc.

Seems like you really have to know what you're doing with a rotary. Definitely glad I stuck with the PC -- if I or anybody's car I work on really needs more work, they can take it to a professional detailer. It's like my teeth -- I can brush 'em, but I 'aint gonna do a root canal or extraction on em !!! :)
 
As with all processes, there are many variables when using a rotary buffer.
RPMs of the machine, speed of movement, type of pad, abrasiveness of product, paint condition, hardness of paint, amount of product used and the list goes on ...
Keep in mind that what works for one person, because of these variables, may not work exactly the same way for you.
I have used a rotary off and on for over 30 years and I still have problems from time to time.
I have not had experience with the Menzerna line so I cannot coment on the products you used. Meguiars DACP and #82 Swirl Free Polish are some very user friendly products to learn how to use the rotary. The are many other products on the market (some much better) but they sometimes require more experience to achieve the results required.
DO NOT GIVE UP!
Knowing some specific problems you had will help others to offer you some advise to try next time.
A couple thoughts while learning:
Work one panel at a time to completion ... This way you can make corrections before moving on to the next one. (not practical in the long run)
Use foam polishing pads and buff until the product is almost dry but still wet. (I have gotten swirls from buffing some products until dry you will learn which ones with time)
Do not be afraid to ask questions ... Ther are a lot of people here that are willing to help.
 
Another thing:
When bare metal or primer is showing that is a result of buffing through the paint.
If you think about it, buffing compound and polish is like a very fine liquid sand paper.
Not exactly but that makes it easy for me to keep in mind that I am removing paint when I am buffing.
Burnt paint is usually caused by holding the buffer in one spot too long. The paint actually becomes hot, sometimes to the point of melting and then being smeared by the pad.
I have also seen paint with brown streaks in it from being burnt by buffing.
In case you are wondering ... these problems were created by me as I learned to use the rotary.
 
Rotary is a skill learned :) -I'm still going at it. The best advice I got was to get a 6" backing plate and work with the PC sized pad's till I got comfortable with sling and what not. I have never gone beyond 1400-1800 yet and the most aggresive pad I have used is still foam (meg's red).
 
HondaMan said:
I think unless some of us here are pros or quasi-pros, there is just too much risk to using anything but a PC.
Click to expand...

I see the rotary as a powerful and (therefore) interesting tool that I'd like to learn how to use. I view alot of tools like this: you have to know your limits and how to minimze the probabilty of the major risks occuring when using the tool. The same goes for a rotary as a chainsaw.

If your not willing to make an effort in order to learn what the major risks are and how to minimize the probability of them occuring DON'T use the tool.

I believe that the major risk is getting the paint to hot. In order to avoid this I:

- Keep the rotary moving
- Never exceed 1500 rpm
- Use foam pads
- Work of the edges (not on them)

That's my DO and DONT'S!!!
 
kimwallace said:
A couple thoughts while learning:
Work one panel at a time to completion ... This way you can make corrections before moving on to the next one. (not practical in the long run)
Use foam polishing pads and buff until the product is almost dry but still wet. (I have gotten swirls from buffing some products until dry you will learn which ones with time)
Do not be afraid to ask questions ... Ther are a lot of people here that are willing to help.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your knowledge! I'll work tonight, one panel at a time.
 
If you want, get an infrared therometer and point it at the paint 100 degrees plus is starting to get into potential danger territory IIRC
 
The main thing is time for sure. I apprenticed at a body shop to "learn" the knowledge, but applying them by myself without them there was a different story. The more and more you use it, the better you'll get. It certainly wasn't like a PC where you basically got the hang of it after a few panels :D
 
Outside of a deep scratch into the paint/clearcoat, why would any of US want to risk the damage from a rotary?

Would any of you professional detailers use a rotary on a fairly new car that was well-maintained? You'd use a PC for that, right?

If a rotary still gives someone like Kimwallace trouble after 30 years, I would advise anyone here to either (1) forget using one (2) only use it on a car that has severe damage and where the risk-reward is skewed in your favor (i.e., don't use it on a Ferrari or Porsche except maybe in 1 small section where needed to minimze risk of miscue).
 
Nickc0844 said:
The main thing is time for sure. I apprenticed at a body shop to "learn" the knowledge, but applying them by myself without them there was a different story. The more and more you use it, the better you'll get. It certainly wasn't like a PC where you basically got the hang of it after a few panels :D
Click to expand...

Nick, unless someone is pretty good with one from the get-go, and then doesn't mind practicing on junk panels, the thing that would bother me is that if a person is a pro, he's going to be "experimenting" on client cars.

Or, if not a pro, it's a person who is doing his/family/friend's cars and does so few of them that he has very little chance to improve.

All the more reason for most of us -- not all of us, agreed -- to stay clear of this.

If I ever need rotary use on a car I own, I'll hire one of you guys.
 
Hondaman, I'm going to hire you as my right hand man and tell everyone to hire a professional to do their rotary work. :lmfao

I guess it is all a matter of self. For me, it was wanting to improve my skills in my business. I think I did it one of the better ways, by going to a professional, and working under them. This is a person who runs it for hours a day. This was the best way for me to make rotary work less of a risk.

As for experimenting, I wouldn't necessarily call it that. I have tried new products before on client's vehicles, before testing on my own. I guess that it is my personality that if I try it and don't like it, I'll do it again to make it right. I do not just settle for "ok" or "decent".

The PC simply didn't do the job for me in tougher situations. Most would agree with that. The PC wasn't meant to fix moderate swirls. A rotary simply works faster at it. You are correct in saying that there is risk putting a rotary on a decently new/well maintained vehicle. I wouldn't use the rotary unless I needed to. The PC is easier to work with (and lighter). However, if you look in my current Ferrari thread, I used a rotary with a very mild pad and polish. Confidence is definitely needed to work this machine; I believe most users would agree.

A rotary is definitely not a machine for a person who only uses it twice a year. That's where the risk is skewed towards the user, thus, not fine results. That's just my opinion though.
 
Good post, Nick.

One thing with the "experimenting" you refer to: when you do it with LSP's and all the products we talk about, worst case is that you use something that doesn't look A+ but maybe is a B or something. It wears off eventually and you re-do it, or if you really want, you start the detailing over from scratch.

The thing that I would impress on anyone reading these threads is that a mistake from a rotary is PERMANENT. A month ago, I made a mistake by adding Carnuba wax to my car which had a few layers of acryllics/polymers and then I couldn't add acryllics. No big deal -- I'll re-acryllic it in a few weeks and the car essentially looks the same.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top