Finally did it. (Burned Through Clear)

T

thursday88

New member
Well it finally happened, or atleast i'm 99% sure. I have polished my car several times with my UDM and menzerna SIP/106ff. Well after going over my car with the SIP and a orange light cutting pad I noticed some RIDS and horrible scratches. I decided to run some ScratchX 2.0 over it becuase I really couldn't feel the scratches with my fingernail. I guess either I worked the polish too long(really only did about 4-6 passes) or maybe I pushed too hard, but when wiped to check my progress I noticed the splotching in the paint and saw some paint transfer on my pad. I have detailed my car with the DA before and have yet to even remotely mess anything up until now. Also this car was more than likely neglected for the first 8 years of it's life, until I found it lol. And to make things worse I still see the scratches and after 3 IPA wipedowns I still can't catch my fingernail on them, they are perfectly smooth I know it's hard to feel scratches sometimes but these things are tiny.



Well it was bound to happen sooner or later, good thing I tested it on my trunk first. The car is a 98 Integra LS. Sorry for the cell phone pics, my rebel is charging if need be I can take some with that.



Well if I did mess up my clear which i'm almost positive I did I just want to learn how to avoid this in the future, because hey if you don't learn from "your" mistakes "your" just not gonna make it.





Yes my car is Milano "Pink" yes haha so I finally got the color I want, just minus the clear coat...:wall





Click on picture for full size if you want.







Secondly I did the car with SIP/106ff, and followed with Klasse AIO and i'm currently applying plenty of coats of SG. My question is i'm kind of lost on what to top it off with. I usually just throw on a coat of Meg's Gold Class wax but was also looking at NXT 2.0 or something like Meg's #7 glaze or Meg's High Tech Yellow wax. I also should have time to order something as I am shooting for about 6 coats of SG and should take about 6-7 days to apply because of the wait time between coats.
 
yup, definitely burned through the clear. This is not a bad thing when learning to polish. There are a lot of pros who say they have never burned paint before. I always ask this question when I'm interviewing someone. If they haven't burned paint before, then they don't know how much polishing they can do to get the best results. I polish cars every day, and when I was younger I burned paint on several cars learning. Now, I haven't burned paint in many many years.







John
 
JohnKleven said:
yup, definitely burned through the clear. This is not a bad thing when learning to polish. There are a lot of pros who say they have never burned paint before. I always ask this question when I'm interviewing someone. If they haven't burned paint before, then they don't know how much polishing they can do to get the best results. I polish cars every day, and when I was younger I burned paint on several cars learning. Now, I haven't burned paint in many many years.







John
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Thanks for the positive statement, that's exactly how i'm looking at it. It's just nice to hear it from someone else.
 
Yep. Mine first burned polish job was on my father's car. Did it with a 4 inch pad and lots of concentration lol. I didn't even notice during waxing. Only noticed a couple days later. Good thing it was on the Elcamino!



I'm pretty cautious now, but that's not to say I won't to it again. I'm getting a PC pretty soon, and I'm going to have to perfect my technique with it. Guess the Saturn will be the guinea pig once again! :D
 
All this talk of burning *through* the clear simply makes me :nervous: It's not like you can take off much clear without causing problems and to go all the way through is just, uhm...really something. Take off just 0.0005" worth of clear and you'd better not park in the sun too often. And it's not like most vehicles will never need polished again.



When working on normal (as in "non-Autopian-owned/maintained") cars, I'd sure approach things from the "what's good enough?" perspective, at least in the absence of an ETG. Better for a car to look ~80% forever than to look 95% for a few months, or even years, and then need a repaint (before starting the whole slow decline all over again). Eh...that's just IMO though.



Same old story; I'm always being the Autopian Heretic with my talk of settling for (far) less than perfection. And I'm the guy who does shoot for as close as I can get to 100% on a few of my own vehicles :o But it's not like I polish those every year either.



OK, OK, end of rant. [Accumulator sheepishly climbs down off soapbox]



thursday88- Hope the above didn't come across as a :nono Sorry to hear what happened...
 
Thursday, you did that with a PC? Was the machine very hot when you did it? Maybe the paint was extremely thin and you didn't burn through it per say, just eliminated it in that area... It's very odd you would do that with a PC and with such few passes...



JohnKleven said:
yup, definitely burned through the clear. This is not a bad thing when learning to polish. There are a lot of pros who say they have never burned paint before. I always ask this question when I'm interviewing someone. If they haven't burned paint before, then they don't know how much polishing they can do to get the best results. I polish cars every day, and when I was younger I burned paint on several cars learning. Now, I haven't burned paint in many many years.

John
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That's a bad generalization in my opinion... I have never burned through the clear (did burn a trim piece on my old car one of the first times using the rotary 3 or so years ago) and even if I did, I still don't see how I'm qualified to say "Oh, that's how much I can polish, no I'm an expert"... not only are there different types of paints, but different pads and different ways of burning through, so unless you burn through every paint job with every pad and every way of burning (holding in one spot too long, hitting edges, tilting pad), you only learn to not do exactly what you just did, whatever that was...



Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to argue here, and I do see your point of view, but that's just a huge generalization... in a very small way, yes you'll learn how to polish a bit better if you burn through... for example, if you tilt the pad too much and it burns through, you'll fix your technique not to tilt that much anymore... if you hit an edge, I bet you'll be taping them from now on or be very very careful... but to say you know how far you can go to get the best results after you've burned paint is simply incorrect... going as far as you can go is bad in itself because, when used in this context, you need to go until there's just enough clear coat left so you don't burn through...
 
I've seen that type of paint problem. My friend has a 2001 Toyota Corolla Silver. The car has been repainted. After about 3 years later, the guy never washed the car. And his clear is peeling off. So, referring to your integra, I think the car might have been repainted and been neglected for 8 years like you said. The clear coat is just too thin so it just go bye bye. So when you polish, you are trying to move the defects, and when you remove defects, you are removing paint. That's my 2 cents.
 
lecchilo said:
Thursday, you did that with a PC? Was the machine very hot when you did it? Maybe the paint was extremely thin and you didn't burn through it per say, just eliminated it in that area... It's very odd you would do that with a PC and with such few passes...







That's a bad generalization in my opinion... I have never burned through the clear (did burn a trim piece on my old car one of the first times using the rotary 3 or so years ago) and even if I did, I still don't see how I'm qualified to say "Oh, that's how much I can polish, no I'm an expert"... not only are there different types of paints, but different pads and different ways of burning through, so unless you burn through every paint job with every pad and every way of burning (holding in one spot too long, hitting edges, tilting pad), you only learn to not do exactly what you just did, whatever that was...



Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to argue here, and I do see your point of view, but that's just a huge generalization... in a very small way, yes you'll learn how to polish a bit better if you burn through... for example, if you tilt the pad too much and it burns through, you'll fix your technique not to tilt that much anymore... if you hit an edge, I bet you'll be taping them from now on or be very very careful... but to say you know how far you can go to get the best results after you've burned paint is simply incorrect... going as far as you can go is bad in itself because, when used in this context, you need to go until there's just enough clear coat left so you don't burn through...
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Very true, it is a huge generalization. But, I'm sure you understand when I say that every detailer who comes in for a job seems to think they're "The Best".







John
 
No worries on the burn bud. At least yours wasn't a burn down to the primer (damn plastic bumpers....)



Just learn from it and you'll be fine ;)
 
JohnKleven said:
Very true, it is a huge generalization. But, I'm sure you understand when I say that every detailer who comes in for a job seems to think they're "The Best".



John
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Yea like I said, this isn't a stab at you or defensive at all, just stating my opinion... I do agree that if someone never burned paint doesn't mean they're some expert (it doesn't mean they aren't, but doesn't mean they are either)... I just don't want people to not only think burning paint is the 'experience' necessary to be a good detalier, but also thinking they have to go as far as they can without burning through to get good results... I think integrity of the paint should be first on the list, then 100% correction
 
I think most Honda reds have tinted clear, so you will get paint transfer onto the pad when you polish. It's that way with my new S2000 which is new formula red and on my old integra which I believe was milano red.
 
yep thats a burn! a big one at that! like you said you learn from your mistakes! im one to be aggressive with paint. just look at some of my write ups! with time and exsperiance you will know simply when to stop. i have compound thousands of cars and sanded 100's literlly. i burned a few a long the way. i haven't recently knock on wood. the thing is you can't beat yourself up and you just simply have to move on! its bound to happen. good luck on your adventure. and remember stay passionate about this and you will make it far!
 
Burned might have been a bad word, what I meant and why i added the 8 years of neglect is that I think the clear was just really darn thin in that area besides the roof the trunk is the next worst surface. But i'm still scratching my head wondering how I just ate through the clear and didn't even touch those scratches, My finger nail won't even hang on them it's smooth as butter but I can see those freaking scratches and it's really getting to me haha.
 
thursday88 said:
Well it was bound to happen sooner or later, good thing I tested it on my trunk first. The car is a 98 Integra LS. Sorry for the cell phone pics, my rebel is charging if need be I can take some with that.
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You did make it happen sooner.



Well if I did mess up my clear which i'm almost positive I did I just want to learn how to avoid this in the future, because hey if you don't learn from "your" mistakes "your" just not gonna make it.
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Don't reduce the clearcoat so much. We are talking about something that is as thin as one or two sheets of paper. The best way get and keep it looking good is to focus on getting it very clean, and then only smooth enough that the LSP can do the rest of the job.



Sacrificing 50% of the clearcoat thickness to chase out a scratch is counter productive IMHO. If I need to use anything tougher than Mothers PWC, I like to do it by hand.



This is also why I love abrasive free products like TW Ice or Mothers NF Carnauba. Because I can control the amount of abrasion incured and can abrade the paint with products that are optimal for doing that.





Go with what accumulator said. Burning through the clearcoat is not a mark of quality.
 
thursday88 said:
Burned might have been a bad word, what I meant and why i added the 8 years of neglect is that I think the clear was just really darn thin in that area besides the roof the trunk is the next worst surface. But i'm still scratching my head wondering how I just ate through the clear and didn't even touch those scratches, My finger nail won't even hang on them it's smooth as butter but I can see those freaking scratches and it's really getting to me haha.
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It's more than likely the scratches are under the cc if the car was maybe repainted... I've seen that a lot and hate not being able to do anything about it...



GoudyL said:
Don't reduce the clearcoat so much. We are talking about something that is as thin as one or two sheets of paper. The best way get and keep it looking good is to focus on getting it very clean, and then only smooth enough that the LSP can do the rest of the job.



Sacrificing 50% of the clearcoat thickness to chase out a scratch is counter productive IMHO. If I need to use anything tougher than Mothers PWC, I like to do it by hand.



This is also why I love abrasive free products like TW Ice or Mothers NF Carnauba. Because I can control the amount of abrasion incured and can abrade the paint with products that are optimal for doing that.



Go with what accumulator said. Burning through the clearcoat is not a mark of quality.
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I agree that the less cc you remove the better and people shouldn't always chase perfection, but it's very hard to say "Don't reduce cc so much"... I've been polishing paint for about 3 years and never had an 'oops' or removed too much cc (too much being all of it) but honestly I can't say how much I did remove as I used a paint gauge 1% of all my details... on older cars, you can easily remove too much with the lightest of polish/pad combos, whereas newer cars it's highly unlikely unless it was polished a lot previously... as for hand vs. machine, I'll take a rotary on a flat pad with a finishing polish any day over doing it by hand because by hand you're concentrating a lot of pressure on a very small area, and are usually removing more cc than a very light pad/polish combo with machine...



I just got my highline gauge today and Sunday's scheduled for some detailing videos, including polishing by hand, rotary and RO... I'll post some pics/videos on here
 
Sorry to hear about your car. It is a learning curve, and you just met the extreme.



This a good thread for all the newb's and fairly newb's that ask about wetsanding and scratch removal. The clear is very thin and the point of no return comes very quick if you don't watch you progress.
 
I'm starting to think maybe it was resprayed, because the same thing is on the roof. I see tons and tons of scratches and cracking but it's all under the clear. It's smooth as butter.



EDIT: One thing I really have wanted to learn and the thing that may help me achieve the best finish possible is how to know how long to work certain polishes, like when am I dry buffing and when is the polish all the way broken down. And is there any rhyme or reason as to why my Menzerna SIP/106ff dust so much. The SIP dusts like freaking crazy, where the 106 dust but it's very minimal.
 
thursday88 said:
I'm starting to think maybe it was resprayed, because the same thing is on the roof. I see tons and tons of scratches and cracking but it's all under the clear. It's smooth as butter.



EDIT: One thing I really have wanted to learn and the thing that may help me achieve the best finish possible is how to know how long to work certain polishes, like when am I dry buffing and when is the polish all the way broken down. And is there any rhyme or reason as to why my Menzerna SIP/106ff dust so much. The SIP dusts like freaking crazy, where the 106 dust but it's very minimal.
Click to expand...



SIP dust is somewhat normal, whereas 106ff shouldn't dust much but a bit... if it's a lot of dusting you're polishing too long... I'm doing some videos over this weekend and I'll try to capture on camera how the polish breaks down... there are a couple videos online already... this is a pretty good description of it...Polish Break Down Stages - Poorboys SSR2.5



one test that I've found to work well is the swipe test Mike over at Meg's always mentions... as you're polishing, stop after about 2-4 passes (pass meaning you're polishing one section with one application of polish and have gone left/right once, then up/down once, making it 2 passes... still need to do more passes to break the polish down... hope that makes sense) with the PC (no polish should be 'done' after only 5-6 passes on the PC, even at speed 6) and swipe your clean finger across the polished surface... you'll notice the polish just smears and you can't see the paint still... keep doing this every 3-4 passes and you'll notice once the polish is ready to be wiped off, it won't smear much when you swipe your finger, rather you'll remove most of it with your finger where you swiped... then you know it's ready for removal... usually you can do a pass less or a pass more, especially with the PC, and still be fine, but if it starts dusting like crazy you went too far... also, clean your pad often as lots of the dried up polish gets stuck in the foam and starts coming out when you're polishing again... might make you think you went too far with the current polish application but it's just old stuff coming out... hope that helps
 
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