employees taking business from you

E

Envious Eric

New member
what do you employers do to prevent it, and how do you deal with it when it happens? its like stealing, in a sense!



what about if they do a job after all your scheduled stuff per stop but dont tell you about it because the person came up to them last minute?



Trying to figure some things out before I get this express business up and running.
 
I would first and foremost have them sign a non-compete agreement if you really want to make sure none of your guys is taking on side jobs. If they violate the terms of the agreement, it's game over.



Likewise in the case where you discover one of them doing jobs under the table with YOUR equipment and supplies while they're out and about, it would be grounds for instant termination of employment, and quite possibly legal action.
 
In PA, non-competes don't hold up as you cannot keep someone from earning a living but we are an "at will" state meaning we can fire at any time without justification.



If I had employees on the road I would have controls in place to track their time. Maybe provide a cell phone with GPS tracking and have them send a text when they start and finish a job or finish at a location, similar to how taxi cabs operate.
 
I've thought about this a good bit too. I'd definitely put a no-compete clause

in their contract; and let them know up front the penalty for such behavior.

Ultimately, though, you're going to be working in good faith with whoever

you have out on the job, so I think its important to have someone you trust

out there doing the work.



I haven't done much research on it, but I also considered the possibility of

mounting security cameras around the work vehicle. This way you'd be able to

see everything going on in the vicinity of your vehicle. That would certainly

make it more difficult for them to accept side work. I think just the psychological

aspect of knowing that your watching could stop a lot of it.



Would love to know what solution you come up with, as I'm in the process

of planning something very similar for my own business.
 
MichaelM said:
In PA, non-competes don't hold up as you cannot keep someone from earning a living but we are an "at will" state meaning we can fire at any time without justification.
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Interesting; I could understand that if you were including a clause saying the employee cannot take a job with a competitor or start their own competing business for a period of time after employment is terminated, but you're not really keeping anyone from earning a living by saying they can't take on side jobs (specifically doing the same work your business does) while they are employed by you.



That's really an arguable point though -- could go either way.
 
Non-competes:



1. Generally nonenforceable.



2. Even if they are, it's expensive to enforce them.



3. It tells new employees that you don't trust them before they even start work.



4. If customers are following your employees rather than staying with you, stop blaming the employees and look at yourself.



The last company I worked for was purchased by a large firm, and the first thing they did was have us sign noncompetes that were unenforceable. It pissed everyone off, and really killed any chance of me staying there long-term. They're a bad, bad idea IMO.
 
The people that worked for me were sub-contractors and they were responsible for their own chemicals and equipment. This eliminated theft & waste completely. As far as somone stealing your cleints or curbing work, that can get tough unless you're a complete control freak. The moment you let down your guard, they will try to push the limits. Much less prevalent in a fixed shop then a mobile operation though. I could tell you all kinds of stories. you may want to put something in place with the client (in a subtle way) to form some kind of checks and balances.
 
David Fermani said:
The people that worked for me were sub-contractors and they were responsible for their own chemicals and equipment. This eliminated theft & waste completely.
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If they work for you, then they represent your company. If they were sub-contractors how did you control quality?



What someone does on their own time is their own business. Mechanics do side work all the time, usually for friends and family. Unless you can prove they are being paid for the work, you have little recourse. The only thing you could really enforce is if they are using your tools and materials, as it is then theft.



The important thing is to develop a relationship with your employees that allows for trust and open communication. Let them know that, under no uncertain terms, they will be terminated for theft of materials & or customers. If a customer goes to them when they no longer work for you, then they were never really your customer anyway. If they would like to detail their wife's, mom's, friends car on their day off and want to use your equipment and ask permission to do so, let them. (within reason.) Happy employees are almost always the most profitable in any business.
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
Interesting; I could understand that if you were including a clause saying the employee cannot take a job with a competitor or start their own competing business for a period of time after employment is terminated,
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That's generally what a non-compete is. It keeps people from taking intellectual property and giving it to a direct competitor. For example it might say, "after working at X shop you cannot work or start a business within a Y mi radius of the shop for a period of Z years".



It would be hard to keep employees from doing side jobs with their own supplies on their own time. Doing side work on your time or with your equipment or in your facility would certainly be a fire able offense.



I agree with what 15951 has said as well. Keep employees happy, pay them well, show them a future and you won't have to worry too much.
 
Here is an article about a guy that operated a mobile detail business that had a couple trucks on the road. He used an online payment system to help deal with this problem. You could also install a GPS tracking system on the mobile rig so you know where it is at all times.
 
I have a heart to heart with anyone that works for me. We have a very candid conversation about what is ok and what is not. I make it very clear that if they violate my trust, it is over and I hope that one job is worth not making any money from my business any more.



It's like this:

If you are at a job that I have invested time/money in attaining and someone drives up and says they want to get some work done, the only reason it's taking place is because of my investment and I will expect a return on that investment. That customer is now mine by proxy.



Approaching a current client and trying to do work on the side is the same as outright theft as far as I am concerned. Legally, they may do this, but they are done with me.



If they decide to pick up work on their own, that is their customer and I do not feel entitled to receive anything, nor will I try to sway someone from him.



I pay my tech freaking good money for his time and I make it really hard to make the decision to turn on me. As I said though, if my trust is violated just once, it is over forever. I can't trust liars and thieves.
 
I'm a full time student, but my summer job is working for a smaller local landscape company (6 trucks, 6ish employees). Some guys were accused of taking longer lunches (we get half hour paid) and customers would like to fight their bill on time spent on the property. So we installed a system called Teletrac in the trucks. Depending on the model you get, you can view the route the truck traveled, including turns, speed, truck start/stop, etc. We use it in the winter for plowing to track the trucks and it comes in really handy for billing. So this could be a good tool to use for keeping track of time when billing customers as well as keeping an eye on your guy(s).



My boss has never said anything, but it is obviously frowned upon to take work from him. However, he understands that before I started working for him I would cut my grass and two of my neighbors. So if I need to borrow a blower or something he doesn't mind because he trusts me and knows I'm not taking his customers, he never asks for gas money or anything in return, the only stipulation is 'you break it, you buy it'.
 
No one can stop any employees from any un-ethical misconduct.





The max we can do is to honestly treat employees courteously and in a friendly and respectful manner, rather than being another hillarious Gordon Ramsay in Hell's Kitchen.





When an employee genuinely respects you and feels comfortable working at your place, the chances of him/her playing tricks will be minimised.





But as usual, as time goes by, familiarity MIGHT breed smugness and that "smart-xxx" attitude.





Besides being nice and understanding towards my guys, and not working them to death, my only other method is NOT to reveal what products they are using daily.





For example, using only non-branded squeeze bottles, I'd label all the compounds, polishes, glazes using simple acronyms such as:



1. Meguiars 205 = SR 1

2. Menz 106FF = SR 1.2

3. Menz 85RD = SR 1.3

etc.



The actual products are inside my office in a locked cabinet, and suppliers come after hours to deliver stuff and have chats with me. Often, they go to my home.

My staff have never seen the actual bottles of the products. As you know, there are thousands of prdts out there that 're grey or white-coloured.

Paste waxes are scooped out and placed inside clear acrylic tubs, and acronymed.





At closing time, I ensure all products are topped-up inside my room, and then locked away in the main locker (detailing bay).





Hey guys...I'm not selfish.

But in this industry where any employee can (possibly) play tricks behind our backs, this is just a small measure I take to ensure that it's won't be that easy for them to set up their own business and use MY techniques and approaches.





They'll hv to figure out for themselves:tongue2:
 
Quality post right here.



gigondaz said:
No one can stop any employees from any un-ethical misconduct.





The max we can do is to honestly treat employees courteously and in a friendly and respectful manner, rather than being another hillarious Gordon Ramsay in Hell's Kitchen.





When an employee genuinely respects you and feels comfortable working at your place, the chances of him/her playing tricks will be minimised.





But as usual, as time goes by, familiarity MIGHT breed smugness and that "smart-xxx" attitude.





Besides being nice and understanding towards my guys, and not working them to death, my only other method is NOT to reveal what products they are using daily.





For example, using only non-branded squeeze bottles, I'd label all the compounds, polishes, glazes using simple acronyms such as:



1. Meguiars 205 = SR 1

2. Menz 106FF = SR 1.2

3. Menz 85RD = SR 1.3

etc.



The actual products are inside my office in a locked cabinet, and suppliers come after hours to deliver stuff and have chats with me. Often, they go to my home.

My staff have never seen the actual bottles of the products. As you know, there are thousands of prdts out there that 're grey or white-coloured.

Paste waxes are scooped out and placed inside clear acrylic tubs, and acronymed.





At closing time, I ensure all products are topped-up inside my room, and then locked away in the main locker (detailing bay).





Hey guys...I'm not selfish.

But in this industry where any employee can (possibly) play tricks behind our backs, this is just a small measure I take to ensure that it's won't be that easy for them to set up their own business and use MY techniques and approaches.





They'll hv to figure out for themselves:tongue2:
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The best way to avoid employees leaving you and trying to take your customers I have found to be:



a. Hire people with good values and morals, have a standard established for the kind of person you want to hire and take

time to interview them based on that standard



b. Pay them well enough so that they do not want to leave you and start their own business.



Should someone leave you and start a "back-alley" detail business, which is what most of them do, report them to the various government agencies. Business license; EPA re proper water discharge; Labor Dept, etc.



And, most of all "take care of your customers" so they would not consider leaving you.



Control what you can control. You can't control what someone does if and when they leave you.



Regards

Bud Abraham









toyotaguy said:
what do you employers do to prevent it, and how do you deal with it when it happens? its like stealing, in a sense!



what about if they do a job after all your scheduled stuff per stop but dont tell you about it because the person came up to them last minute?



Trying to figure some things out before I get this express business up and running.
Click to expand...
 
You don't have someone sign a non-compete, you have them sign and agree to a Business Code of Ethics, or Business Policy. In this document, you can put whatever you want. Here are some exerpts from the one I use:



Excellent attendance is an expectation of all employees of ~~~~. Daily attendance is especially important for hourly wage employees whose customers and co-workers have the expectation of on-time attendance. Absenteeism is understood to be anything ranging from tardiness for a shift to completely missing a shift.

Absenteeism may be excused for extenuating circumstances, including major acute illness and the death of a family member or relative. The final decision regarding absenteeism rests with the general manager. An appeal may be made to the President, in writing by way of letter or e-mail, should an employee disagree with a decision made by the general manager.

Failure to notify a supervisor or manager of absenteeism will result in a verbal and written warning. Disciplinary action, up to and including employment termination will follow on any subsequent absenteeism that is not excused. Should the absenteeism result in the non-operation of business functions by the company (ex: missing the only shift that opens the business on a Saturday morning), the general manager or President may choose to supersede a verbal and written warning and immediately terminate the offending employee’s employment.



Employees will have access to company computer systems.

Employees are to refrain from the following prohibited activities:

- Accessing personal social networking web sites (ex: Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, etc).

- Accessing YouTube, Break.com and other video streaming web sites.

- Accessing personal e-mail.

- Accessing any pornographic material.

- Accessing any material deemed illegal by law, including but not limited to, Warez, hacking, virus distribution, copyrighted audio, etc.

- Accessing any material not directly related to the employee’s job function.

Any employee deemed to be in breach of the company Computer policy will be disciplined, ranging from a written letter of reprimand, to immediate dismissal. The general manager, solely, has the right to deem whether an employee is in breach of the company Computer policy. An appeal may be made to the President, in writing by way of letter or e-mail, should an employee disagree with a decision made by the general manager.
 
You know that just because someone signs something saying they won't do something does not make it illegal to do. In this case, a non-compete that is called something else.



WAS said:
You don't have someone sign a non-compete, you have them sign and agree to a Business Code of Ethics, or Business Policy. In this document, you can put whatever you want. Here are some exerpts from the one I use:



Excellent attendance is an expectation of all employees of ~~~~. Daily attendance is especially important for hourly wage employees whose customers and co-workers have the expectation of on-time attendance. Absenteeism is understood to be anything ranging from tardiness for a shift to completely missing a shift.

Absenteeism may be excused for extenuating circumstances, including major acute illness and the death of a family member or relative. The final decision regarding absenteeism rests with the general manager. An appeal may be made to the President, in writing by way of letter or e-mail, should an employee disagree with a decision made by the general manager.

Failure to notify a supervisor or manager of absenteeism will result in a verbal and written warning. Disciplinary action, up to and including employment termination will follow on any subsequent absenteeism that is not excused. Should the absenteeism result in the non-operation of business functions by the company (ex: missing the only shift that opens the business on a Saturday morning), the general manager or President may choose to supersede a verbal and written warning and immediately terminate the offending employee’s employment.



Employees will have access to company computer systems.

Employees are to refrain from the following prohibited activities:

- Accessing personal social networking web sites (ex: Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, etc).

- Accessing YouTube, Break.com and other video streaming web sites.

- Accessing personal e-mail.

- Accessing any pornographic material.

- Accessing any material deemed illegal by law, including but not limited to, Warez, hacking, virus distribution, copyrighted audio, etc.

- Accessing any material not directly related to the employee’s job function.

Any employee deemed to be in breach of the company Computer policy will be disciplined, ranging from a written letter of reprimand, to immediate dismissal. The general manager, solely, has the right to deem whether an employee is in breach of the company Computer policy. An appeal may be made to the President, in writing by way of letter or e-mail, should an employee disagree with a decision made by the general manager.
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Jean-Claude said:
You know that just because someone signs something saying they won't do something does not make it illegal to do. In this case, a non-compete that is called something else.
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It's not criminally illegal, no, you're right. You won't be going to jail over it. But you CAN be held civilly liable, absolutely. If you can prove that a legally binding agreement was broken, and your company lost revenues because of it, you can definitely get compensated. On top of that, if the employee used YOUR company's client list, that's also theft of intellectual property, and violation of business-client confidentiality (unless your customers specificially agreed to you giving their name out to anyone and everyone).



Is the process of civil litigation a PITA ? Yep. Does it guarantee that you won't spend more on litigation than what you recoup in an award ? Nope. But it's there, available, and should be used when the circumstances warrant it. Just because litigation is a lengthy process that requires some dedication doesn't mean that we as business owners should ignore it when our employees violate an agreement.



I also mention a Business Code of Ethics or Business Policies, because you can address many more things than just a non-compete agreement. You can outline what happens in situations where there's theft, misuse of company property, you can outline dress code (if you have company clothing you need your employees to wear all the time), etc. It also makes it a little less direct that JUST a non-compete agreement, as in you're not singling out that one aspect that you're worried about.
 
The key phrase is legally binding agreement. If it is a non-compete, no matter what it is referred to as in a contract, and you are in a right to work state it won't hold water in front of a judge.



WAS said:
It's not criminally illegal, no, you're right. You won't be going to jail over it. But you CAN be held civilly liable, absolutely. If you can prove that a legally binding agreement was broken, and your company lost revenues because of it, you can definitely get compensated. On top of that, if the employee used YOUR company's client list, that's also theft of intellectual property, and violation of business-client confidentiality (unless your customers specificially agreed to you giving their name out to anyone and everyone).



Is the process of civil litigation a PITA ? Yep. Does it guarantee that you won't spend more on litigation than what you recoup in an award ? Nope. But it's there, available, and should be used when the circumstances warrant it. Just because litigation is a lengthy process that requires some dedication doesn't mean that we as business owners should ignore it when our employees violate an agreement.



I also mention a Business Code of Ethics or Business Policies, because you can address many more things than just a non-compete agreement. You can outline what happens in situations where there's theft, misuse of company property, you can outline dress code (if you have company clothing you need your employees to wear all the time), etc. It also makes it a little less direct that JUST a non-compete agreement, as in you're not singling out that one aspect that you're worried about.
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CA does allow non-competes...



I was thinking about a truck mounted video camera I can check out on my home computer



monitoring supply use and towel use...when two towels should be used per car, and there are 15 towels used, but only 4 cars scheduled, something fishy is going on!



obviously its got to be worth it to work, otherwise no one would be employed! my payout model should be pretty enticing since I dont want to be doing the work, but rather administering it!



Now to find an employee or two. I have recently talked to about 6 people and none are going to be able to fill the need
 
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