DACP Disappointment

L

larry_bar56

New member
Well, I finally got the chance to use my new PC. My white car has a fair amount of light scratching, probably caused by poor washing and harsh winter here in New England. But, all in all, the car still has a decent shine and the scratches don't seem worse than anything I've read about here.



After much reading, it looked like DACP was the right product for this job. I used the PC with a CMA yellow pad. Followed all the guidelines, multiple passes over the area until the DACP disappears, start at speed setting 4 then move to 5 for the final passes. After finishing I was unimpressed with the DACP. I really thought this was going to help. What I got was a bit more shine than I had, but almost no improvement on the scratches.



I know someone will suggest that I should try FCRC, and I will do that, but I just don't have the time now to do the car over again right now.



I guess the DACP isn't as abrasive as I thought it would be.



Anyone else have a similar experience and move to something more aggressive and get good results?



Where do I go from here to get the best finish I can get? I was thinking:

SMR with white pad

PI-III Finishing Glaze with gray pad

OG Blitz Wax



Comments?



Thanks
 
I'd suggest Perfect It III Machine glaze with a yellow pad to start. Make sure to mist the pad first with a little water...start out at 3 to 3.5...you should see the product staying liquid a little longer. When you begin to see it turning glossy under the edge of the pad, raise the speed to about 4.5 to 5...work it slowly and the swirls should be pretty musch gone and the gloss should be amazing. NOTE...I am using a white pad..I found that the yellow created a hazing effect...with the white pad..perfection.

Then , when you're happy with the finish, go over it with a clean white pad and some Vanilla Moose ....oooooh baby!



"I'll be right in honey..I'm almost done!"
 
Wow, I kind of use DACP as my work horse for swirl removers. It pretty much tackles almost any of the swirls I want to get. Sorry you didn't feel that it did much, especially since swirls are so hard to see on a white car anyway. I might try some fine cut cleaner or Poorboy's SSR3.
 
Is there a difference between the PI-III Machine Glaze and the PI-III Finishing Glaze? I haven't used the finishing glaze yet and could still exchange it.
 
I don't think he had problems, DACP removes swirls and light scratches but not all scratches. Go with the fine cut cleaner and then DACP. Also when working DACP on a damaged surface crank it up, I leave it on 5 to 5.5 when needed.
 
What do you mean by "scratches". Swirls and scratches that don't penetrate the paint can be buffed out, but if you can feel it with your fingernail the best you can do is reduce the appearance of them.



Just be glad you ahve a white car! :)
 
The scratches I see are faint and really can't be felt, so that's why I thought that I should have had better results. You're right it is a blessing to have a white car with this type of problem. I can't imagine how much time some of the dark car owners must put in to keep them looking perfect.
 
Have you looked at the link to the thread I provided yet? The person had similar issues with DACP.



If DACP is not strong enough, you could use Meg's Compound Cleaner with buffered abrasives. Then DACP followed by SFP.



My other question, are the marks buffer marks? (ie. from a rotary?)



In my opinion, PI-III MG is not as abrassive as DACP. I have and used them both quite often, so I would follow the DACP with the PI-III MG.
 
Hi Larry,



One question and a couple of thoughts,



Question: Does your paint have a clear coated? I know the majority of cars being painted today have clear coats, but I don't know if that always holds true for white.



Here is why.



White single stage paints are the hardest paints there are.



You couldn't pay me enough money to detail a single stage white car with paint problems.



When it comes to "Single Stage Paints", hardness is determined by "Pigment Type". The pigment used to make paint white is "Titanium Dioxide Powder", on the Mohs hardness scale it's a 9.5.



A Diamond is a 10



Been there... done that... don't like working on single stage white paint.



Now if it's a basecoat clearcoat finish, with clear over the white, then your still talking about some pretty hard paint, at least compared to conventional lacquers and enamels from the pre-mid 70's days.



There is a lot of confusion over the "hardness" of paints. Most people think modern clear coats are "soft", because they scratch so easy. For the most part, this is wrong. Modern clear coats are "Hard", but... they still scratch easy. That's the irony of it all.



Think about it, have you ever heard of a "Hand Rubbed Lacquer Finish"?



(yes?)



Now... have you ever heard of a "Hand Rubbed Clear Coat Finish?"



And I don't mean when somebody applies a coat of wax, I mean when somebody, sands down a clear coat finish and then puts it through a series of “hand applied abrading procedures� to produce a beautify show car finish?



No is the correct answer.



And the reason for this is because modern clear coats are so hard you cannot remove defects like scratches by hand, at least not completely, and definitely not “easily�.



That's where "Foam Pad Technology" really shines, (excuse the pun), and Diminishing Abrasives come into play.



Back to your problem with the DACP.



I understand why everybody loves the Dual Action Polisher... it's easy to use and "Safe".



The reason it's "Safe"... is because "it doesn't do any work".



By that I mean, it doesn't "Move small particles of paint", the thing that is necessary in order to remove a scratch.



I call the PC, the Cyclone, and any other "Orbital" polisher, "Jiggle Machines".



That's because for the most part, that's what they do... they jiggle, (oscillate if you want to be all technical about it).



Because they don't do work... they are safe, but... because they don't do work, they will not remove scratches.



PC's can be used to remove very fine scratches, but your success will be determined by,



Your abrasive

Your Application Material

Your Technique

The hardness of your paint, or "How workable it is".





While I cannot see, or evaluate your finish, chances are, in order to remove the defects your finish has to the point that you will be satisfied, will require a rotary buffer.



Unlike a PC, a rotary buffer "Does Work", i.e., it will move, or remove small particles of paint.



Because a rotary buffer does work, it is no longer "Safe", (like a jiggle machine), and it is no longer easy, (or at least... 'as easy').







Just a few thoughts for your consideration...
 
larry_bar56 said:
The scratches I see are faint and really can't be felt, so that's why I thought that I should have had better results. You're right it is a blessing to have a white car with this type of problem. I can't imagine how much time some of the dark car owners must put in to keep them looking perfect.
Click to expand...



As others have said, you may need a more aggressive product. Technically, you can get out any scratch with any product (as long as it has SOME level of abrasiveness) but it will take a really really long time. Just get some haveier polish and try to work the scratches specifically. You want to "feather" the edges of the area (i.e. don't just grind away at the scratch and nothing else) but concentrate on the scratch. If it's not down to the primer it should come out eventually. That said, it depends on how much work you're willing to put into it as well as just how deep in the clearcoat it is.



I'm not familiar enough with the various polishes to recommend a specific product but anything from Griots/Meguiars/3m should be fine. I'm sure someone else has/will recommend the specific item from those lines to try.
 
thomasfl said:
I don't think he had problems, DACP removes swirls and light scratches but not all scratches. Go with the fine cut cleaner and then DACP. Also when working DACP on a damaged surface crank it up, I leave it on 5 to 5.5 when needed.
Click to expand...



When I use FI-III I go right to vanilla moose or s100 SEC after it. Do you really need to go to DACP?
 
I'm just working on a dark maroon metallic Intrepid with lots and lots and lots of small scratches.



Went round with DACP to clean off all the junk on the paint, but had to go round and 'spot fix' with Diamond cut to really make any impact on the scratches.



I'm wondering if I used the same compounds with a rotary, would they be alot more agressive ?



I've about 'outgrown' the PC and was wondering about how effective the products I already have would be with a rotary.
 
Mike Phillips said:




When it comes to "Single Stage Paints", hardness is determined by "Pigment Type". The pigment used to make paint white is "Titanium Dioxide Powder", on the Mohs hardness scale it's a 9.5.



A Diamond is a 10
Click to expand...



Mike, I will defer the paint hardness expertise to you and other more advanced detailers, but I just wanted to point out that using the Moh's hardness scale for paint is not accurate. That scale is for minerals. ie. a diamond being 10 is a single diamond. If you have diamond paste, or diamond sandpaper, you'll still be able to scratch the matrix which is bonding the diamonds. I suspect that's the same case with the white paint. The trouble is that the pigment is not being scratched, but rather the material the fills the paint in between the pigment. That's probably why it's hard to work with. It's hard to level the paint, as using a foam pad probably differentially removes the matrix, but doesn't touch the pigment, which may aggravate the appearance of a scratch.
 
Smoker said:
[I've about 'outgrown' the PC and was wondering about how effective the products I already have would be with a rotary. [/B]
Click to expand...









Dangerously more aggressive would be a better description.



I'm not trying to shy you away from learning to use one, but I wouldn't recommend "Learning to use a rotary buffer on a Black Viper".



How abrasive a product is greatly affected by,



Application material

Application method

Time, heat and pressure

Amount of product used (sometimes more is not better)

And in the case of a rotary buffer, rotation speed and even weight



Definitely, get a variable speed buffer to learn with.



I also recommend you practice on a car that "Is not important" to anyone. Even go to a wrecking yard and pull off some hoods or deck lids to practice on.



Heck, I've taken my buffer to the wrecking yards and buffed on cars out there, versus dragging panels home. (I removed the original short cord from my buffer and wired in a 100' cord)



This is also how I practice trying to remove scratches from clear coats by hand. That is practicing on cars that are not important to anyone.



Hope this helps...
 
2wheelsx2 said:
Mike, I will defer the paint hardness expertise to you and other more advanced detailers, but I just wanted to point out that using the Moh's hardness scale for paint is not accurate. That scale is for minerals. ie. a diamond being 10 is a single diamond. If you have diamond paste, or diamond sandpaper, you'll still be able to scratch the matrix which is bonding the diamonds. I suspect that's the same case with the white paint. The trouble is that the pigment is not being scratched, but rather the material the fills the paint in between the pigment. That's probably why it's hard to work with. It's hard to level the paint, as using a foam pad probably differentially removes the matrix, but doesn't touch the pigment, which may aggravate the appearance of a scratch.
Click to expand...



Hi 2wheels2x,



Yeah, the Mohs hardness scale isn't the perfect method of comparing the hardness of pigments and paints, but it gets the idea across.



When it comes to paint hardness, clear resins, that is, resins without pigment, have a certain hardness. When you throw in another ingredient, in this example, a colorant, or pigment, you change that hardness level. The pigment acts as an "adulterant", in a way, contaminating the original matrix as you put it, or resin.



The resin, (paint), will be affected by the pigment depending on the type and hardness of pigment.



Black single stage finishes are softer than white single stage finishes because the pigment used to make paint black is carbon black, (basically carbon black is “soot�), something that is very soft, while as I posted previously, the pigment used to make paint white is titanium dioxide, something that is very hard.



When these ingredients are added to the same resin material, they will change the overall characteristics of the resin material.



I am not a chemists, and I never try to speak over my head, but I do like to study paint and plastic chemistry. Your right in that the Mohs hardness scale isn't best or even correct method of discussing paint hardness, it's just the only example I could think of that could 'paint a picture', (excuse the pun), and help explain why some paints are harder than others.



For example, while I will turn down working on someone’s car with a single stage white finish, (if it has problems, like scratches and swirls and the reason the customer is bringing it to me is because they want them removed),



But... I will gladly work on someone's car with a single stage black finish with swirls and scratches because I know with about 99.9% of these types of finishes, the paint is going to be softer, i.e. "More Workable", than any single stage white finish.



Does that make for a better explanation?
 
Excellent! :bow Thanks, Mike. I was all against getting a new black car because of my anal retentiveness, but your post actually made the decision easier for me. :)



BTW, I was just being nitpicky about the Hardness. You see, I am a geologist by training, and I those types of scales being misused so much for "creative" marketing that I am a little quick to jump in. But your explanation makes perfect sense to me. Guess I'll convince my wife not to get that white car after all! :D
 
4DSC said:
Hey everyone, wouldn't a wool pad be the next thing to try?



:confused:
Click to expand...



Personlly, I make using a wool pad on a rotary my last option.



But then again, I don't work in a body shop. If I did, then I might use one more often for the increased speed the cutting power of the wool fibers provide.
 
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