City Requires Mobile Detailers to Capture Run Off!

Relaited said:
You are making my point that most in this industry are technicians, not business people. 2 days on a detail ... 6 hours perfecting paint ... holy cow, that is embarrassing from my point of view.



And, let's say I accept your logic, that most autopians are like you ... then in aggregate, you are all an issue. Law of big numbers



You will see, the regulators will fix this as I agree this is the dominant view of those here. That's why I share these threads with the regulators, so they can get a sense of what the industry really thinks.



Thanks for making my point.
Click to expand...



Do you actually read anything here? This is not a car wash site, it's an OCD anal-retentive 99.9th percentile site. If you share this with regulators, you are giving them a completely skewed version of what "detailing" or car washing is about. If you look at the stats, we only have 3000-odd active members here, many of which are like me, who have never touched a car other than their own, family, or friends.



What people are pointing out here...well...no, I wouldn't want to drink the runoff from my car wash, even if I'm only using biodegradable detergent. I likewise wouldn't want to drink the runoff from the street in front of my house. Why? Because it's full of road salt, brake dust, tire dust, dog piss, oil drips, garbage, and oh, did I mention, it's made from a petroleum product, asphalt?



Anyone who approaches this from an "engineering" point of view (or is that a "technicians" POV?) can see that your car doesn't "capture" anything but a small fraction of the brake dust and rotor rust, and virtually none of the tire dust, not to mention fluid leaks, etc. The idea that this stuff is only released when cars are washed is ridiculous.



That being said, and I think I posted this same thought earlier in the thread, is that it's a difficult regulatory challenge. Obviously no one wants to feed motor oil to fish, so you can't ALLOW it, but at the same time, it's going on all around you. So what do you do? You make laws against it, but you only selectively enforce the law...when someone is doing something blatant.



Do you truly, truly, believe that if there were no one washing cars outside without water reclamation, that it would even make a dent in the amount of brake dust going down the storm drains? Where is the hue and cry about the over 200 million pounds of salt we put down on the roads here in NJ this winter? Maybe we should have a law that all new vehicles should be hybrids so that instead of bleeding off energy by the friction of brake pads, it could be recovered as electricity instead of spreading particles all over the road. Or maybe there should be a law requring everyone to have Blizzak tires in the winter, so they wouldn't have to salt the roads?



Common sense would indicate that vastly more vehicle "dirt" is deposited onto the roads from normal driving than is done from matless washing...do you have any statistics to back up your assertion that it isn't?



I don't think any of us think pollution is good, what we are responding to is the hypocrisy of being told that you can't wash brake dust off your wheels, but you can drive around all you want spreading it over the countryside. It would be different if you said "you can't wash it off, AND you have to put this double-stick tape on the inside of your wheels to catch all the dust and once a quarter bring it to the brake dust recycling center where they will carefully remove it and properly dispose of it, and put new sticky stuff on". Show me some legislation that is as gung-ho about getting brake dust off the roads as they are about getting it off of my wash sponge.
 
I operate in So California ... seems to be a different country ...



Bottom line, when I jump in on a thread, like someone asking for products and process on an Engine Detail, I do jump in to share points about containing the contaminants. When I am with the Regulators, this is what they care about.



I am motivated by money. I am rapidly expanding this model here, largely without a fight from the industry. The government is introducing regulations that tilt the scale in my direction. The property managers are selecting the Amenity based on Water $mart Eco Detailing. the only challenges I get are relationship based. A guy has been in an office building for 15 years , knows everyone, and everyone likes him ... but rest assured, the pressure washer is being ripped from his hands as we speak. And only through those relationships is he offered the opportunity to scramble to find a water $mart eco detailing solution. Those without relationships are getting the boot!



That is the reality, my reality. If it is not happening in your world, I think it will soon, and there is an opportunity to be a first mover.



On another forum, I behaved the same way ... received the stereotypical responses as I have received here. After a year, there are several "converts", and it is exciting to see the traditional industry veteran have to admit that he put down his pressure washer and came over to the dark side ... and it is allowing him to put out quality that rivals and or blows away anyone here ... ANYONE. So to dismiss this model is very ..... well, you fill in the blank.



Bring it on, like the guy above, he was embarrassed when I share d his historical posts with him. I have not yet been embarrassed by any posts I have made



“Don’t teach a pig to sing … frustrates you and annoys the pig!â€�



-jim



PS If your customer comes up to pay you $179 for a Maintenance & Protection service on their 2 year old $80,000 Mercedes that was conveniently serviced, came out great, while they were at the movies or shopping with their family ... and you are embarrassed about that? Then take the scenario to your CPA, and see what they think ... oh, don't have a CPA ... making my points all over the place!



PPS So many try to come back at me ... dude, you can't color sand they way I do! I do not get defensive, I recognize that. For the limited scenarios that we see the need for such services, we outsource to those that have that expertise. I know who I am, what I can do and what I cannot do. I know what training I have and do not have. I don't get defensive ... realistic self appraisal and decision making process can benefit most here ...
 
Setec,



Does not matter what I think ... it matters what the regulators think.



And, like it or not, they do not think like you.



Bottom line



-jim
 
You're getting called out on almost every single thread your posting in. I just want to point out one more little fact here. You do realize that "washing" the car is only a very very minor part of what we do to get the cars to the level we get the cars. where as "washing" the cars is almost entirely what you do. Your business structure isn't anything more than I would call basic prep work for what 99% of us on here do.



Now the powers that be in your area might have come down on you like the hammer of thor for some reason. But for the rest of us... I'll take a stab and say byt the time this legal cancer spreads to the rest of us most of us will be out of the business anyways. Meaning we're talking years and years and years away. There are so many other things in this country to worry about long before wash water going down a drain is even going to be a blip on anyones radar. Now it's been said you''re pushing this because your upside down in some franchise. I don't know if that's totally true or not but I would easily say what your doing now is nothing short of spam. It's a unwated sales pitch. Time to stop.
 
Jake, another point is, for a fixed-base operator like yourself, your runoff is going to the sanitary sewer, which in most areas means it's going to the sewage treatment plant, not into the river or lake without treatment. As far as how big this "problem" is, I'm not sure I've ever seen a mobile detailer IRL, only in pictures on here.
 
SCoach said:
Having formerly worked for Florida's Dept. of Env. Protection (in water and legal) and having a GF that currently works for Water in a section responsible for testing stormwater runoff, I asked her some hard questions last night.



The issue to me with these ordinances is not so much that they seek to catch potentially harmful runoff. Frankly, I don't have a problem with the idea. It's going to be brutal for the mobile guys though. The REAL devil is in what to do with the run-off once you have it?



Industrial wastewater is regulated quite strictly here in Florida, and fines from those out of compliance bring in a LOT of money to cover budgetary shortfalls in the agency. But, large industrial installations have treatment options that the mobile detailer simply doesn't. It's not like you can catch your water, filter it, and present the sludge to a facility for disposal. Any such facility would have to be permitted to perform that function, and currently it simply doesn't exist.



Sticky problem to be sure.
Click to expand...



Er...actually it does, it's called a sewage treatment plant. You take your collected runoff, and pour it into a sanitary sewer. If you have filtered out the particulate, that can go in your garbage as solid waste.
 
P.S Autopians, is this true?



Yes. Generally speaking most of the pro detailers here are spending 90% of their time doing correction, and 5% of their time washing cars. I work 7 days a week, usually 5-7 cars a week; so 5-7 washes a week. That's in contrast to volume detailers that are doing hundreds of washes a week. It's an entirely different type of service.
 
Picus said:
P.S Autopians, is this true?



Yes. Generally speaking most of the pro detailers here are spending 90% of their time doing correction, and 5% of their time washing cars. I work 7 days a week, usually 5-7 cars a week; so 5-7 washes a week. That's in contrast to volume detailers that are doing hundreds of washes a week. It's an entirely different type of service.
Click to expand...



5% is a little bit of an exageration, but your idea is true (for me at least). I wash a car to clean it up for correction/full detail. It is like you said, prep work.
 
If you look at my model, I think it is a bit myopic to say it is a wash model. Now, for a good debate, we can debate on the definition of "detail". Most of what I do is Maintenance and Prevention, not Reconditioning. But rest assured … I believe there is no money in cleaning cars, so washing is not my focus, simply a predicate act, meaning it necessarily must come first.



But the good and bad part of this industry is that I get to define it, as there is no definition. I think I am defining a reasonable definition, one that brings value to both segments. In a couple of my locations, we do Reconditioning. Mostly because I have a couple guys who came from that world, and I am trying to minimize it, I don't think that is our niche.



But the one thing I will violently defend is my right to do it. And from a business perspective, I can tell you it has great value. In an economy that has challenged most, many, since the 95% has been thrown around, let's use it again here. Yet I am growing like gang busters, and I know I could not do that with any other model. most of my customers do not know or do not care about my model, they simply like the convenience and quality of outcome, as their expectations were managed in the beginning.



What's my agenda? I do not want to deal with the folks that have all this industry experience like here. It is like teaching pigs to sing, frustrate you and annoys the pig. I don't even like hiring "detailers' to many bad habits in an untrained profession. And if others are doing as well as me ... why are so many with experience flooding my craig's list hiring posts? I am a believer that this model is the future … you will see.



So, if any of you would like me to test this theory, that this topic is not important to regulators in your operating area ... tell me where you operate, i will do the homework and report back.



Careful though, if I spend that time and energy, I will make results very public, so just be careful before you accept my challenge ... that is how confident I am ... are you willing to put your entire business and livelihood to the test? I am, I will tell you where and when I operate ... you try and do this in reverse to me.



Any takers? I am not trying to be confrontational, just bold. But it ain’t bragging if you can do it!



Jim
 
By the way, out of curiosity, those like Jakeroni ... how much experience, knowledge and expertise do you have with a Water $mart Eco Detailing model?



Many seem to have strong opinions, and I was just wondering if it was a fact based response or an emotional reaction?



Please elaborate on your level of experience / expertise on the subject matter.



-jim
 
Your still preaching to the wrong crowd. 95% of the "detailers" here are not volume car washers.



You say its like trying to teach a pig to sing. Your right. You should be trying to teach another animal.



I think everyone here understands where your coming from and how it benefits those in your industry. Now understand us. The washing part where runoff can possibly be an issue is a very very small percentage of what we actually do. When someone is washing 10 cars a day, that's when it becomes an issue. But if someone is spending a day or more on 1 car, do you know how little of that time is actually spent using water? Many detailers here have already switched to rinseless washing. The runoff with that is minimal.



You really need to find another forum. As I said, look for one that specializes in volume work, not detailing.



Your opinion is welcome here ofcourse, but you've gone beyond opinion now.
 
Relaited said:
By the way, out of curiosity, those like Jakeroni ... how much experience, knowledge and expertise do you have with a Water Eco Detailing model?



Many seem to have strong opinions, and I was just wondering if it was a fact based response or an emotional reaction?



Please elaborate on your level of experience / expertise on the subject matter.



-jim
Click to expand...





It's not that I'm an expert or claim to be an expert. It's the fact that washing and run off from washing are such a very minute portion of what I do I simply do not care. Nor do I want this constantly forced down my throat. It dosen't effect me even if you think it's the future or whatever. And I (as well as many others) simply don't care. Like it was already mentioned to you many times over. If you would've just simply came on here and presented some well thought out facts and left it alone for us to process we probably would've been much more recpetive. But you come on here and blast anyone and everyone about this day in and day out to the point where I'm actually turned away from even looking into it now. You've completly lost all credability with me on this. I don;t care if your 100% right it still isn't going to make me look into this "Wonder system" and it's getting to the point that if I'm ever even asked about it I will dismiss it as a bunch of total BS. Just because of your over the top sales pitch you keep trying to force upon us.



You my freind are your own worst enemy......
 
Typical relaited post:







OP makes a thread asking about leather care.



Relaiteds response: well caring for your leather is nice and all but what about the contaminants that my drop from your wash rag! may I ask where that's going? I do water$mart detailing. My method > your method.



OP: responds to others tips



Relaiteds response: no one has answered my question yet. You wait till I get my inspector buddies. They will show all of you. I make more money than all of you. I'm a business man. I am the future. How many cars do you clean? I make 12000 an hour....what about you? Go on cleaning your leather the "old way", while I keep water$martting my contimants........... Your all idiots.





----------------------







..........Good point about being his own worst enemy.
 
Well, then my only hope is that all my so called competitors are reading this, so I can continue to operate without any major competition. Again, I think that is a poor business decision, jakeroni, at least for those operating in So Cal. Does anyone understand how California, like it or not, whatever your view on global warming is, does anyone see the national influence of what starts here in California? Anyone?



After just getting of calls with several regulators, just wanted to share a fact that they do not care if you wash 1 car, or 100 cars. they don't care what your definition of "detailing" is. They recognize a predicate act (comes first, necessarily) is to clean the car, before you work your technical magic. They do not care what soap you use.



They only care about what process you use to achieve the standard of zero discharge. On that they are pretty clear.



Now, one regulator was from a desert region, and the water quality is not as impacted by this industry as much as their interpretation is the landscape will act as a natural filter. I accept that.



But I am in a coastal community. And that is not the case.



Those gentleman are the facts. I will be in a San Diego County City on Monday, same issues. Now you will think I am preaching, but I am concerned that I have made a significant investment, have an investor to dump in a bunch more, and I and one other person have the foresight to actually attend these City meetings in an attempt to preserve our industry, and make sure the City codes, standards and best management practices are REASONABLE. I can’t stop the ball … but I can try to influence it.



... hate the game, not the player



Jim



PS Doesn’t anyone else get it here?
 
Dsoto, yes, it is my opinion that most detailers are technicians, and most are untrained.



Is that in dispute? Maybe some can enlighten me on the level of training, I have not seen the initial nor ongoing investments by many. I am willing to be proven wrong with facts.



Yes, if you are not considering the environment in your process, in my opinion that is wrong, and that is why the Regulators have this energy against our industry, they know that too.



Pick another topic, I have no issues with cleaning and conditioning leather, can't see any issues with any contemplated method. All waste is in a towel, I assume you are cleaning in a washing machine and not out back in the river.



I am surprised you are in San Francisco and taking these positions. With the state of drought, and what I know to be happening on conservation requirements this summer, and the NPDES Permit in your region ... my observation is that ignorance is bliss.



jim
 
Apparently you don't. I'll spell it out nice and easy for you. No one disagrees with you! Your preaching to the choir! Most people on here already take steps, however small they are, to make less of an impact, or plan to in the future.



The fact is, no matter what your regulators are telling you, most members on this board are not on here because they enjoy washing cars! Holy crap man, get with the program.
 
Yes, we get it. I also get how you are gaming the system, how you take every opportunity to hob nob with regulators, to demonstrate to them that you can wash without discharge, how it's feasible for them to put all your competition out of business with rigorous enforcement, and still not prevent consumers from getting their mobile car wash.



All very legal. All very "american way". All very Wall St./AIG-ish. "But Senator, it was all legal!" "But Congressman, we have a contract!" In that situation, I hated both the game and the player. So, you may be playing by the rules; don't expect us to love you for it.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
All very legal. All very "american way". All very Wall St./AIG-ish. "But Senator, it was all legal!" "But Congressman, we have a contract!" In that situation, I hated both the game and the player. So, you may be playing by the rules; don't expect us to love you for it.
Click to expand...



I'd bet my membership that little dog isn't from America, and it would only take one guess to tell you where he's from.
 
I'm not arguing against what you have said. I'm just annoyed by the way you say it.



Why don't you just come out and tell us how really your just trying to sell us on your reclmation mats and waterless product.



You preach like your worried about the enviroment. But your own words are that your a businessman. We can see that. Your enviromentalist act may fool the regulators, but we all can see that money is the main concern. If your business is doing so well, than why do you keep pushing it on us to convert. We know its not because your worried for us. Worried that we may be left behind or slapped with fines. There's something behind all it.



Just say it, you want us to invest in you. You've probably invested heavily already in some companies products. We've gotten your point.
 
I do want the appropriate enforcement, and to level the playing field. A guy who comes in and details without a wash mat has a lower cost structure than I do. I try to wash as few cars as possible ... no money in cleaning cars. And no I would never sell you a wash mat, can’t sell you the waterless, and, although there is a remote possibility that I may be able to sell you something if you were in So California … the odds are very slim on a fit of compatibility. Both from my end and from yours, not really my agenda.



This is my last post, … I am off for the weekend.



I meet with a San Diego County City on Monday, I do not have any devious intentions. They are concerned that the Total Maximum Daily Loads as put out by the SWCB will create a finable offense as the City cannot just allow things to happen without proper controls.

Now, as they are introducing those controls, I advocate reasonable controls. Use a wash mat, No Rinse, Steam or waterless and best available technology as a best management practice.



Maybe I am delusional. A recent industry veteran convert, fought me as hard as anyone here, and now I go out of my way to help him without any, not one financial relationship ... he encourages me to stop posting as I am "casting pearls to swine". His words, not mine.



I thought I had a tremendous amount of energy … but you guys win, I am defeated by attrition.



Have a nice and profitable weekend, happy Easter.



jim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top