C. Charles Hahn
CCH Auto Appearance, LLC
buda said:
Its the smug holier-than-thou crap you post like this that makes people sick and tired of you. If you'd make an attempt at being a little more personable you would be much better off.
Automatic Car-Wash Horror Story
- Thread starter vicious28shine
- Start date
Its the smug holier-than-thou crap you post like this that makes people sick and tired of you. If you'd make an attempt at being a little more personable you would be much better off.
Bigpoppa3346
New member
mikenap said:
You're welcome!
Thank you! I love that pic, it's hilarious.
buda said:
It moves over the stationary car.
Dan
Well-known member
buda said:
Just because an industry flourishes, that doesn't make it great. Places like McDonalds and WalMart exist because people just don't care about quality. Same goes for car washes. People just want their car to look a bit cleaner. This site is full of people who are are passionate about keeping their cars looking like new. What sort of answer did you expect?
This isn't complicated:
Proper Hand Wash > automated conveyor wash
I dont care if automated systems are well maintained, 5 million, etc. Consider the sheer volume of cars that go through them a day and the one size fits all approach. Even if they are cleaning the mediums no one is inspecting them after each car to see what MAY be trapped. Even worse the HUMAN factor before and especially after the wash, wiping down the areas the machines missed (dirt), the wheels (brake dust) then back on the paint means insta-swirls or even scratches.
I will admit some newer washes are better then before but if used regularly you cannot avoid swirls or even scratches from these places.
Proper Hand Wash > automated conveyor wash
I dont care if automated systems are well maintained, 5 million, etc. Consider the sheer volume of cars that go through them a day and the one size fits all approach. Even if they are cleaning the mediums no one is inspecting them after each car to see what MAY be trapped. Even worse the HUMAN factor before and especially after the wash, wiping down the areas the machines missed (dirt), the wheels (brake dust) then back on the paint means insta-swirls or even scratches.
I will admit some newer washes are better then before but if used regularly you cannot avoid swirls or even scratches from these places.
mikenap
New member
BocaCoupe said:
You'd be surprised.
Nth Degree
New member
Hmm. Let's put this to the test. Get a black car and perfectly polish the hood and one door. Take good photos to document the condition. Run the car through 10 conveyor car washes. Then take photos with the same light conditions. If it is swirled you have half you answer. Now re-polish to perfection and give it 10 hand washes and take photos again. Compare the after photos and maybe get a few volunteers to inspect, as photos don't always show the truth.
Any volunteers. If Bud wants to spring for a plane ticket for me we could use his washes. I'll be fair in my supervision and inspection.
Any volunteers. If Bud wants to spring for a plane ticket for me we could use his washes. I'll be fair in my supervision and inspection.
Nth Degree said:
Nth Degree:
You are a bit behind the times. The Technological University of Munich in Munich, German was commissioned a few years back by Mercedes-Benz to conduct a controlled study testing exactly what you have described.
Test vehicles were wash 26 times by automatic carwashes, with by the way, plastic bristles and 26 times by hand.
At the end of the test period they took microscopic photos of the paint finishes of the test vehicles and found that the cars washed by hand were had paint finishes that were far more damaged than those washed by machines.
Why?
Because as soon as a mitt or sponge was put on the dirty car it picked up the sand and grit and then when used again and again on the surface of the car it acted like fine sandpaper, scratching and marring the finish.
On the other hand, the machines bomarded the car with water and shampoo creating a protective barrier between the paint and the washing material.
And, if you watch most detailers, even many who claim to be professional high tech detailers they might dip the wash mitt in the wash bucket once or twice during a wash. They seem to think that the attention getting foam in the shampoo is doing some good, when it is the water that would provide cleaning and protection.
You can believe this or not but the test is fact. And, in fact, the International Carwash Association had the Univerity of Texas, a few years later, duplicate this test and they came up with the same conclusion.
Happy to accommodate you on such a test Nth, but I do not own car washes, but my friend has 16 here in Portland we could use for testing.
Regards
Bud Abraham
Nth Degree
New member
buda said:
Can this be found online? I'd be curious to read it. Primarily to find out what the "controlled" conditions were. Are we talking kid in the driveway doing hand was or a pro using two bucket method with quality materials? Was the automated wash in a controlled environtment or had it washed a 4x4 after someone took it off road before one of the runs? I have no doubt that if the materials in an automated wash are new and fresh water is used that it can be as safe as a hand wash. But, just like a cheap hooker, you never know who was there before you.
Nth Degree said:
Try googling Technological University of Munich Car Wash Study or Test. The test was done before the internet so I am not sure it would be on line.
I will go through my files and try to find copies of the test.
As I recall the test cars were "on the street" and were washed 26 times which would replicate a wash every other week.
The hand washing was done as someone would do at home, not by an anal detailer who uses two buckets and multitudes of wash mitts, which is not normally done in a detail shop; hand car wash nor at an auto dealership. So you cite the two bucket method as a normal way to wash is car is erroneous since few people wash cars like that.
The washes at a car wash were done as a consumer would wash at a wash.
See what I can find for you.
Regards
Bud ABraham
Nth Degree
New member
buda said:
This is why I wonder about the controls. There are caveats to all scenarios, but if they used an average, everyday Joe's handwashing method, then they should also have compared it to an average, high volume carwash in the real world.
Ultimately, if the average autopian, not John Q Public, wants their car to look it's best, what method provides the safest?
I look forward to whatever info you can dig up.
tom p.
Active member
buda said:
There's certainly an element of truth here, but does it really play to the crowd on this forum? We've all seen damage done by people trying to care for their own car at home. Sometimes it ain't pretty...
jfelbab
New member
This provides some of the specifics to the studies.
http://villagecarwash.net/pdf/TexasCarWashStudy.pdf
Neither agree nor disagree with the study, just providing a link.
http://villagecarwash.net/pdf/TexasCarWashStudy.pdf
Neither agree nor disagree with the study, just providing a link.
Bigpoppa3346
New member
Just consider who your audience is on this website. Most people here spend a ton of time hosing all loose grit off the paint prior to washing, use 2 buckets and rinse out their mitts at least 1-2 times per panel, use microfiber towels and wool wash mitts without applying pressure to the paint, etc. It takes most people here a LONG time to wash because of the precautionary measures they take to prevent marring. To say that a conveyor car wash will do less damage than these conditions is absurd.
Now, is an automatic wash safer than Joe Shmo who uses a long handled brush with dish soap and uses old bath towels to dry his car? In most cases, yes. At the Lexus dealer I work at, the automatic spinning brush wash actually adds less marring to the paint than did the "detailers" who used to hand wash the cars (we moved into a new facility and made the switch from hand washing service cars to running them through the swirl-o-matic) with long handled brushes, soapy water that was brown from being used so many times, and water blades to dry.
It's important to remember that the people on THIS SITE, however, are extremely anal and particular people (and among the best detailers in the world), and to say an automatic wash can:
A.) Do a better/more thorough job than said Autopians, and
B.) Do it while being safer/gentler to the paint
just isn't true.
Now, is an automatic wash safer than Joe Shmo who uses a long handled brush with dish soap and uses old bath towels to dry his car? In most cases, yes. At the Lexus dealer I work at, the automatic spinning brush wash actually adds less marring to the paint than did the "detailers" who used to hand wash the cars (we moved into a new facility and made the switch from hand washing service cars to running them through the swirl-o-matic) with long handled brushes, soapy water that was brown from being used so many times, and water blades to dry.
It's important to remember that the people on THIS SITE, however, are extremely anal and particular people (and among the best detailers in the world), and to say an automatic wash can:
A.) Do a better/more thorough job than said Autopians, and
B.) Do it while being safer/gentler to the paint
just isn't true.
Nth Degree said:
As I recall the conclusion of the test was that if one wanted to hand wash their vehicle without the damage that was experienced in the test you would needed to rinse the mitt each time it was placed on the vehicle surface, and more importantly, have a water hose in your other hand running on the surface of the car to create a barrier, like a car wash, between the paint and the mitt.
Regards
Bud Abraham
mikenap
New member
Bigpoppa3346 said:
I went down this road with Bud before, probably a little more fired up than I should have and later apologized for it. But it seems that this is something he just isn't understanding...that this isn't a site for Average Joes or Average Detailers. We talk about "Autopian" standards jokingly but it's true that people here come to see and learn from the best of the best. The level of detailing is WAY beyond what most detailers are capable of, and as such we just aren't going to be the right fit for some of Bud's teachings(preachings?).
Bud, I'm not trying to argue with you anymore since I respect what you do and have done for the industry as a whole. Just try to understand that even within the detailing industry there is a niche which strives for perfection, not just for getting it done to the standards of the general public. This forum right here IS that niche, and that's why we love this place. What works for you and the Average Joe will never be good enough for 99% of people on this site and pushing those ideals will forever have you swimming an upstream battle.
mikenap said:
Mikenap:
Do not believe that I said ever that an automatic car wash could do a better job than a handwash by an anal Autopian detailer or car enthusiast.
What I said was that the test by the Technological University of Munich for MB concluded that automatic machine washing resulted in a less damaged finish than handwashing.
I am certain that the handwashing that was done by the scientists at the U of M or whomever did the washing did not do an anal two bucket, wash the mitt out everytime it was placed on the finish wash.
Logic tells you that if you are aware of the dangers of handwashing you will take precautions to prevent the resultant damage that was discovered by the study.
My point in posting is to provide information, you can take what you want and ignore the rest.
Unfortunately it is always the same people who comment here on the forum as though they are spokesman for the entire Autopia Community. Why is that? You ever self-evaluate why you have to post a comment on everything that someone else says? Why your name appears on just about every post? Might talk to your therapist about that.
I know why I post and my purpose in posting.
Regards
Bud Abraham
Mush-Mouth said:
Never thought about what it might mean. I have always seen this forum and others like it as a "detailing forum" where people involved in the detailing can exchange ideas and gain knowledge and learn.
The sections of the forum on which I participate, "I thought" were for professional detailers who are in the business of detailing, not car enthusiasts. There seems to sufficient sections on Autopia for the car enthusiasts.
I was told by the moderator who invited me to participate on the forum that it would probably be best to post on the two sections I do post on.
What does it mean to you? Is there a meaning? Or is it like the artist who paints a picture and then all the "wannabee" art critics spend hours being important interpreting the meaning of the painting when the artist had none in mind, in the first place.
Regards
Bud Abraham
Brad B
New member
Guys. Keep things civil and on track.
mikenap
New member
buda said:
Well, I was trying to be nice and hopefully letting others know that arguing with you about your posts is disrupting the community. Apparently that's not good enough and you feel the need to strike out, so here goes. AutoConcierge, Shiny Lil Detailer, Junebug, Nth Degree and even Accumulator, who never has a bad thing to say about ANYONE, are coming to wits end with you. So I guess that puts me in good company. I don't speak for Autopia, and I never claimed to. In fact, I was speaking TO Autopia on this post and talking to you was an afterthought so you didn't misread my intentions.
This is a DISCUSSION forum above all else, but show me where my name appears on EVERY post. Giving praise to others showing their work and trying to engage in healthy discussions? Guilty as charged. That's why we're here on the forum in the first place. Not to push our views on everyone else when it clearly is causing a stir and getting threads locked and moderators involved in nearly every last thread you start.
And as for the therapist dig, maybe see what yours has to say about your need to always play the victim, make backhanded comments to others and always want to play the underdog just so you can feel good about defending yourself. I tried to play nice because someone I respect asked me to. You chose otherwise. I've never before felt the need to use the ignore feature here but that day is fast approaching.