are these TWO changing the face of detailing??

[wannafbody]

I think in some cases it's the difference between working on a daily driver and a half million dollar show car that's going to be displayed under artificial lighting. For a light colored daily driver it's a bit of overkill(dependent on the price one is charging for the detail).

 

[Brian_Brice]

First I'm skeptical that a polishing pad on a PC can break down SIP. Aluminum Oxide has a rating of 9 on the Mohr scale with a diamond coming in at 10. I'm not sure that a rotary totally breaks down these abrasives. A PC may dull the sharp edge and then allow the particle to float over the surface in oil but total breakdown-I doubt it.

Good point, I don't know that they were formulated specifically for rotary usage, but straight out of Jeff Silvers' mouth they were developed for factory polishing, I am quite certain they use rotary, not a pc. Maybe if that person kept polishing for a few more minutes in the video we could have found out if a pc can break it down.

 

[Rickrack]

Wow, what a crazy thread....



Is M105/UF-SE the ultimate two step?



Absolutely not, because there are so many variables that come into play. M105 is an aggressive compound, so you wouldn't want use it on paint that doesn't need it. Also, it does have gumming issues if not used properly. However it is the heaviest cutting, nicest finishing compound I have ever used, and nothing to date works faster. To the poster who suggested M86, I see your point, but the main advantage of M105 is the fact you can cut a seciton in 15 seconds or less.



Adding OP or using M86 negeats that advantage IMO, which takes away from the time saving aspect. I disagree with M105 being the flavor of the month however. It is a huge time saver when cutting is needed, and used properly. It also leaves an very nice finish for on many paints (if not worked to long) that MAY not require a third step in the goal for perfection.



SIP/106ff have extermely long working times, and require about 45 seconds (I am being very general in this statement) with a rotary polisher, to fully break down the sharp abbrasives and "flash" the product off. For best results several passes should be made at low rpm after flash to ensure that no minor abrasions could be present. 106ff espically has a lubricant carrier that is very hard to completely remove, and like Ryan (rydawg) I test all my products in the most extreme conditions.



Leaving paint in the sun unprotected, wipe downs with numerous products (prep-sol, APC, degreaser, dawn washes, 50/50 alochol wipes) etc... Infact Ryan and I discuss often, as well both feel with out this knowledge, we have no bussiness working on vehicle's for money. It is our job to ensure true perfection. As Brian stated, that PC video is completely wrong. The difficult to remove carrier in Menzerna 106ff will mask the pad abrasions that common with oscilatting motions of the PC and improper working of the polish. It really needs to be worked to "flash" then burinished, and this takes much longer by porter cable.



As far as UF being the best finishing polish? I suppose its a matter of debate. Saying 3M UF-SE is worse because of its background is no differant, IMO, than saying Menzerna is bad because it was developed for certain paints with high cermaic content (referring to SIP/106ff). In my experience, one can never have too many polishes, and everybody will have a favorite.



I prefer 106ff on harder paint systems (Corvette, M-B, Audi, etc) because the sharp abrasives finish the paint extremely well.



I prefer UF-SE on softer paints as it is less likely IMO to instill hologramming or "mask" pad abrasion. UF leaves a nice gloss and a perfect finish when used according to 3M's directions, and I have never found it to have excessive cut.



I also have used M09, M80, OP, SIP, FPII, FP, and many other polishes for finishing. Of those, I would rate UF-SE as good as any, but with the extreme ease of use and lack of defect hiding (in Ryan and I's torture tests) it tends to be the first finishing polish out of my bag.



Hopefully this discussion will stay informative and not turn into a war.

Well said Todd! :xyxthumbs



I couldn't agree more...

 

[Rickrack]

Sorry for giving you bad product recomendations:bestwish :rofl



My studies and hands-on research are meaningless:secret



May I polish Pintos forever for the bad I have done:sadpace:

Ryan, what do you know about polishing techniques and product knowledge anyway? Do you think you are some sort of pro or something?? :nixweiss :laugh:











[quote name='rydawg']Some people say it's all in the end result.... I say it's all in the entire process which gives you the best end result









You got it!! I totally agree. :bigups

 

[todd@bsaw]

I love it when we can get a discussion in the Pro forum that contains researched and educated responses. Great thread and great responses!



My current two step is M84 and M80. I've been looking to try M105 and 3M UF, so this thread has been a wonderful help.

 

[imported_hockeyplaya13]

Wow. I think we can drop the whole discussion about blkyukon's video. God, lay off a bit.

 

[blkyukon]

Wow. I think we can drop the whole discussion about blkyukon's video. God, lay off a bit.

Hey no worries, I stand behind my statement and method and have done numorous test with a wide variety of products too.



Here is a test I did with SIP/1060FF/PC. I deliberatly underworked SIP with an orange pad to cause hazing, then polished one half with SIP/106FF & wiped it down with alcohol..below are the results

If the carriers in SIP/106FF are able to cover this amount of hazing even after an alcohol wipe down...then it has the best fillers in it I've ever seen. FWIW I used the same method in the video (maybe a bit slower passes) and it's been six months since I did this test....the hazing never came back.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

^Well its a good thing you have forgiving paint. Some paints are less tolerant of incorrect technique.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Wow. I think we can drop the whole discussion about blkyukon's video. God, lay off a bit.

I think when a product is miss used it is the forum's resonpsibility to share their experiences. The goal here is that we all get better, and I would not have gotten to where I am (and I have a long way to go) if I didn't accept the critism of my techniques and used their experiences to better myself. If hockeyplaya felt attacked, I'm sure if he PM'd Brian, Brian would remove the post.



I also believe that since the video is posted as a how to (and the general critism is that it is a "how not to" video) on a major website (and not a forum) it is open to general discussion. How is it any different than when Paul Dalton's video was posted and this forum tore him apart. By making a video public, doesn't that give the forum right to discuss it openly?

 

[Brian_Brice]

^Well its a good thing you have forgiving paint. Some paints are less tolerant of incorrect technique.

:sign LOL!

 

[Brian_Brice]

Todd,



Suggesting that's "how to" polish and break a product down is the main issue. The problem is, there are a heck of a lot more people reading and watching that video on it's commercial website, than reading the truth behind the actions here. That video is very counter productive to this industry, you sometimes assume everyone is on the same page here due to the show of love for cars and care for them. This isn't even close to the case, people are being deceived by that video and will find untrue correction for it.



Hundreds of newcomers to the work are going to deem the correction process as simple, and not technical whatsoever thanks to the resemblance of fine finishes when used improperly. Alcohol didn't show the true tale 100% of the time, especially dealing with that particular polish.



I advice anyone who is looking into beginning machine polishing, follow the Autopian way of proper paint correction, realize how long it takes to truly correct paint. Understand what type pressure you need to utilize on every finish, most commonly use around 15 pounds of pressure while moving your machine very slowly in overlapping passes, yada yada yada, I kind of thought this was all common knowledge. Don't be deceived.

 

[imported_rydawg1]

Ryan, what do you know about polishing techniques and product knowledge anyway? Do you think you are some sort of pro or something?? :nixweiss :laugh:







You got it!! I totally agree. :bigups

:LOLOL I guess I know a few things here and there wise guy

 

[Rickrack]

:LOLOL I guess I know a few things here and there wise guy

:nana: :nana: :nana:

 

[Alfisti]

I know for sure we are the only ones that know what we are talking about from experience of our tests.

That sounds a bit arrogant.



I don't doubt your private research enlightened you but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the experience of a lot of pro detailers on this forum who may have differing views from you.



I'm sorry, but, you're not the only ones who know what they're talking about.

 

[gmblack3]

I just wonder how much time Ryan has spent on the phone or replying to PMs helping others. If the man could get $1 an hour, I imagine he would do pretty well. But I know for Ryan that is not what its all about. Its about his love for polishing and helping others.



You go to extremes to test products, share your results with others and still get criticized.

 

[gmblack3]

Todd,



Suggesting that's "how to" polish and break a product down is the main issue. The problem is, there are a heck of a lot more people reading and watching that video on it's commercial website, than reading the truth behind the actions here. That video is very counter productive to this industry, you sometimes assume everyone is on the same page here due to the show of love for cars and care for them. This isn't even close to the case, people are being deceived by that video and will find untrue correction for it.



Hundreds of newcomers to the work are going to deem the correction process as simple, and not technical whatsoever thanks to the resemblance of fine finishes when used improperly. Alcohol didn't show the true tale 100% of the time, especially dealing with that particular polish.



I advice anyone who is looking into beginning machine polishing, follow the Autopian way of proper paint correction, realize how long it takes to truly correct paint. Understand what type pressure you need to utilize on every finish, most commonly use around 15 pounds of pressure while moving your machine very slowly in overlapping passes, yada yada yada, I kind of thought this was all common knowledge. Don't be deceived.

Excellent advise Brian!

 

[Alfisti]

You go to extremes to test products, share your results with others and still get criticized.

If you're referring to my comment, then let me say I'm not criticizing his product testing, nor the sharing of results, which is his opinion.



My comments referred to the statement that they are the only ones who know what they're talking about.



That's just insulting.

 

[imported_rydawg1]

That sounds a bit arrogant.



I don't doubt your private research enlightened you but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the experience of a lot of pro detailers on this forum who may have differing views from you.



I'm sorry, but, you're not the only ones who know what they're talking about.

You just read it incorrectly then. I was not being arrogent at all.



I think from tests like that it shows that proper wipedowns are VERY important for proper bonding and true inspection of paint correction.



I do not know why people get all offended when tests are being done. It just shows who the real professionals are and the weekend warriors are. There are a lot of pros here that take very valubale info like this and use it to excell at what they are doing.



Todd made a valid point and was looking to help others take certain steps to fix the issue, but he was shot down by a few. At first I thought he was crazy, but while testing, he was right on the money. I talk to Todd a lot and he is one of the smartest paint correction guys I have ever talked to. He knows his stuff for sure. He is beyond anal with everything he uses and demands the best.



It's a shame he was shot down. There was a lot of great info that he could have shared with everyone here.

 

[gmblack3]

If you're referring to my comment, then let me say I'm not criticizing his product testing, nor the sharing of results, which is his opinion.



My comments referred to the statement that they are the only ones who know what they're talking about.



That's just insulting.

Tell me again what is so insulting about what Ryan said:

Great post Todd!



I know our tests were very extensive, but without these crucial tests we would not know exactly what went on between our sealants and waxes. I know we were both amazed at the outcome of the tests, but it has made us who we are. It was worth the hundreds of hours well spent analyzing carrier fluids and pad abrasions to it's fullest degree. We now know how to extend the life of our absolute perfect finishes before any waxes or sealants.



I am sure that we were the only two people to ever do a test on polishes like this. I know for sure we are the only ones that know what we are talking about from experience of our tests.



Some people say it's all in the end result.... I say it's all in the entire process which gives you the best end result

It is very clear to me that Ryan was speaking of the testing that he has done. I know that if I have not went to the same level to test these products, I would not expect myself to be as knowledgeable.

 

[todd@bsaw]

I believe all that Alfisti is saying is that there is certainly a level of arrogance on the forum. Mix that with a sense of false modesty and patronizing other posters and you don't need to wonder why people get defensive.