Another viewpoint on wax

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Glozz

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Hey gang,

Just bought a Makita 9227C 7" polisher on Thursday. I have to say that it's a really nice machine. Speeds are from 600rmp to 3000rpm ( not that I'll ever use that maximum speed). What is really nice about this buffer is that when you first start it, it does not go to max set speed. It gains speed very gradual, so it does not jump out of your hands and shoot across the hood or panel your working on. This is also one of the quietest machines I've seen and also one of the lightest as well. If you compare it to a Dewalt or Milwaukee, it's as if it's not even on and running and this is at top speed!

I was able to find a wholesale auto supply store in Tacoma and get several of Meguiar's "SoftBuff" cutting pads 6.5" and two "SoftBuff" buffing pads 6.5".

One of my friends tried it today on a 740i just out of the paint spray booth and he said he's never had so much energy after buffing out a car before. I was also allowed to do the entire hood of the car and boy was it fun. I was instructed to be slow, and think things through before starting. He just stood back and watched. Talk about feeling good, and now I can say I buffed out a $70K car :D

If your interested in information about this unit please follow this provided link:

http://www.makita.com/product/tool.asp?MODEL=9227C
 
Really nice looking. Have you used the PC buffer. If so, let me know how they compare. People already let me know I paid WAAAY too much for my buffer, I am just waiting to hear that the buffer you have is better as well, :-) Oh well, I'm happy with my PC.



How much did that buffer cost?
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by joed1228 [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Really nice looking. Have you used the PC buffer. If so, let me know how they compare. People already let me know I paid WAAAY too much for my buffer, I am just waiting to hear that the buffer you have is better as well, :-) Oh well, I'm happy with my PC.

How much did that buffer cost? [/b]</blockquote>
joed1228, the Porter Cable buffer is an orbital buffer which will simulate at best the motion of a hand buffed job. I also have one of these machines and they are great for light swirls and very, very delicate scratches in the clear coat of the car finish. Also you need to use products that are made for hand use or orbital use only, otherwise the product will not work to the full potential and could leave scratches more so then when you started.

The Makita and other brands of rotary buffers are circular in motion, develope heat and move much faster. Thus they can make a big mess of a car finish if the operator is not paying attention, or skilled in the use of it.

I guess if you could have the best of both worlds, you'd do as I have done: get one of each and become well versed in the use of each. Depending on what I need to do, I have the bases covered. I am hoping that the rotary "Makita" will not have to be used much, once the defects I'm trying to fix are corrected.

In making your choice on a rotary buffer, always look for a machine that is able to work at LOW speeds. It was stressed to me the other day that I'll never need to use a speed above 2000 RPM, and if so, just to take it to a professional to save myself a disaster!
 
I am new to this forum and I have been reading the posts on this area
about waxes and sealants.I have been a professional detailer since 1993,
and I do not have any experience with show car detailing.What is strange
to me is this idea you need to apply a carnuba wax over a sealant. Is this
a thing to get a better shine for a show?If so then it makes sense, but in
the real world that makes about as much sense as putting a screen door
on a submarine to me.

In Florida, we deal with bugs, treesap, road grime, salt water, heat, acid rain, and the sun. I see boats all the time that some detailer has put many coats
of wax on and now looks dirty and dull from the sun baking salt and dirt into the wax which then sticks to the gel.It is extremely hard to remove, and it requires using grit compound and a wool pad to remove it.Why not just use sandpaper? After all that work, they then apply more wax.

The two main reasons why people use wax are protection and shine. I will
agree a carnuba wax leaves a great shine. Although,for a very short period. It provides no UV protection from the sun, or things like bugs, treesap,
acid rain, and well water. So is the shine worth the potential harm it causes
from these things that I just mentioned? Not in my opinion.


I can only tell you from my experience that the sealant I have used since
1993 does not require a carnuba wax. It has a shine that is equal to any
wax, and it will last for one year on your car. Dawn will not hurt it, and
bugs will wash off with very little effort.Also, it will seal and protect your
clearcoat from all the things I just mentioned above,


Clearcoat is just clear paint, and over time things are going to break it
down.I may be nuts, but why waste your time and money to put something
on your second most expensive asset you own that speeds up the process?
It would seem to make more sense to just wash it and clay it to keep it
clean, or apply a good quality sealant. Wax is old technology.
 
Interesting! How can you say wax provides no protection against UV rays and water? Do you know where the nuba waxes are harvested? The whole point of the wax in the plant they get it from is to protect against the sun. And have you seen the water bead on freash wax? It's hydrophobic.

Oh Well! I still like the shine of fresh wax and it doesn't take that long to do so I am going to keep using wax over my sealants. My sealant will last several months and all of your benifits apply. I use Blackfire. In between applications I use a nuba or spray wax to bring back the shine. It does nothing to harm the sealant.

So, what is the name of your sealant? Did I miss it in the write up?


:White Horse:
 
Not sure I really believe any sealant will last for a year, having used at least 20 different sealants.

Most durable I've seen is Zaino, which got me through a Canadian winter, but now it is about done. 5 months or so, pretty amazing in my book, but it has been dead (along the lower portions of the car) for a long time.

There is just NO way (IMO) any wax/sealant can survive all of the sand/salt/brine on the roads during the winter.
 
billd55 said:
I am new to this forum and I have been reading the posts on this area
about waxes and sealants.I have been a professional detailer since 1993,
and I do not have any experience with show car detailing.What is strange
to me is this idea you need to apply a carnuba wax over a sealant. Is this
a thing to get a better shine for a show?If so then it makes sense, but in
the real world that makes about as much sense as putting a screen door
on a submarine to me.
Click to expand...

Hi Bill,

You will find that most detailing forums are going to cater to a different market then what would be your typical professional detailer. Most detailing forums (such as ours) cater to people who want better results then what you can typically find on the shelves at auto store or then what you can get from most professional detailers.

There are many reasons one might choose a particular wax or combination of waxes and sealants since each may provide a slightly different look that a person enjoys. Some waxes provide deep reflections, some may provide clearer reflections; the same could be said for sealants.

In fact we often get too caught up on the term wax and/or sealant as many products are a combination of both; instead we should look a their individual properties (instead of the name on the label) and make our judgement on that.


In Florida, we deal with bugs, treesap, road grime, salt water, heat, acid rain, and the sun. I see boats all the time that some detailer has put many coats
of wax on and now looks dirty and dull from the sun baking salt and dirt into the wax which then sticks to the gel.It is extremely hard to remove, and it requires using grit compound and a wool pad to remove it.Why not just use sandpaper? After all that work, they then apply more wax.
Click to expand...

Waxes in particular are a combination of the solids (usually carnauba wax) and the solvents (keeping it simple). There have been several tests carried out that have found that you cannot build a thicker wax layer by repeated coats. The solvents in the fresh coat will act to remove whatever wax is not 'stuck' to the paint, so you are limited in how much total wax can be applied.

What likely has happened is that the particular wax that was applied failed quickly and the caustic enviroment that boats face caused the damage.

The two main reasons why people use wax are protection and shine. I will
agree a carnuba wax leaves a great shine. Although,for a very short period. It provides no UV protection from the sun, or things like bugs, treesap,
acid rain, and well water. So is the shine worth the potential harm it causes
from these things that I just mentioned? Not in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Regarding UV protection, this could (and has) been argued over and over, with the same results: either they both (wax and sealant) provide UV protection or they both don't, it isn't one over the other. I would tend to believe that they do provide some level of UV protection.

Also it is widely believed that while carnauba based waxes will not last as long as most sealants (with the odd exception) they provide more protection against acid rain, bugs, tree sap, and well water, because they tend to produce a thicker film then a sealant.

I can only tell you from my experience that the sealant I have used since
1993 does not require a carnuba wax. It has a shine that is equal to any
wax, and it will last for one year on your car. Dawn will not hurt it, and
bugs will wash off with very little effort.Also, it will seal and protect your
clearcoat from all the things I just mentioned above,
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that your sealant does provide UV protection but waxes do not?


Clearcoat is just clear paint, and over time things are going to break it
down.I may be nuts, but why waste your time and money to put something
on your second most expensive asset you own that speeds up the process?
It would seem to make more sense to just wash it and clay it to keep it
clean, or apply a good quality sealant. Wax is old technology.
Click to expand...

Some of your more expensive waxes are more difficult to apply then most sealants, it is often never question of speeding up the process. (Assuming you meant then actual application of the product?)

You use the term 'paint sealant' very generically, but their are many types of sealants, from those that produce the 'shimmer' of a carnauba and last about as long, to sealants who last upwards of six months. Some sealants will not last near as long as some of the longer lasting waxes. Some wax is old technology as is some paint sealant technology.
 
There is no such thing as a permanent UV stabilizer, it a matter of physics, not chemistry. Acrylic polymers and polyurethane polymer are slow to absorb UV light and accordingly very resistant to photo degradation.

UV inhibitors are often not added to formulas because they are expensive additives and difficult to add to silicone (which most car care products contain). Some companies put a miniscule amount of UV inhibitors in their waxes so that they can claim UV protection. Problem is that you could not get enough UV absorbing chemical in a wax product that would provide beneficial protection at the extremely thin layer that is left on the vehicle. Essentially, the clear coat or base colour coat paint must contain the effective UV protection.

No wax that you apply will provide any amount of beneficial UV protection. This barrier is all that stands between the environmental contaminants (ultra violet radiation, acid rain, ozone, industrial pollution, rain, road dirt and tar, etc) and the paint film surface and this renewable barrier is probably less than 0.000001-inch (0.001 Mil) thick.

Most natural Carnauba waxes are optically clear (or as near as possible), which will allow ultra violet (UV) radiation to pass through the applied protection. Carnauba wax doesn?t have a natural UV protection, to provide UV protection requires a reflective shield, that blocks sunlight, and then you lose clarity, which we were striving for by using a clear paint surface protection in the first place.

? Carnauba waxes, contrary to popular belief and / or marketing do not contain natural UV protection; the oils (usually silicone in most products) make it very difficult to add the UV inhibitors. Carnauba waxes, contrary to popular belief and / or marketing do not contain natural UV protection; the oils (usually silicone in most products) make it very difficult to add the UV inhibitors. The reason the Carnauba leaves are protected from ultra violet radiation is that the wax is thick and opaque
? Polymers (acrylics, etc) resist UV degradation very well due to their very high light refractive index, which means that the majority of the light spectrum (including UV) is being rejected from the surface rather than being allowed to penetrate into the paint. So they are somewhat immune and absorb very little ultra violet radiation, and hence UV energy does not damage them

To provide UV protection there are a few choices, use a UVR protectorate (303? Space Protectant) on top of the wax, parking the vehicle in the shade away from the sunlight or use a car cover
 
Interesting thread for sure!

I've been a "sealant only" guy for about 10 years, primarily for the longevity. I've found, on vehicles that are outside 24/7, that good sealants such as BFWD and Z2Pro will last from 5-7 months, still with fairly good protection.

I have nothing against "wax" other than the fact that it doesn't last.

On my two Corvettes, however, which are my weekend toys, I have started using wax in addition to sealant, for APPEARANCE. Carnuba just gives the cars that little extra "pop" and slickness that turns heads!:cornut:

Even though wax may be old-school (because it's been around longer than sealants), it still has it's place in the detailing world.
 
I don't know about UV protection, but I've never seen a wax or sealant that will fully protect the finish from
bugs, treesap,
acid rain, and well water
Click to expand...

They may buy you a little extra time but that's about it. I'll gladly run some well water over anyone's car and let it drip dry overnight to see how well their wax/sealant protects their finish! :D
 
Luster said:
Hey JaredPointer.... Welcome to TID! (Hmmmmm, I've seen your name somewhere else haven't I? Hmmmmm.:thumbup::biggrin:)
Click to expand...


Thanks for the welcome. :D I'm in stealth mode. I do visit and read a few forums. Perhaps I should become more involved at one or two of them, although I am sure some folks might be like this about that ~~~> :banghead:


Haha! :D
 
You may not agree with what I am saying,but I did not come into to this forum the way JaredPointer has. I never had any intention to push my product
I use on anyone , so I do not understand why he assumes that this is my motive.I appreciate everyone else for their civil responses, and I respect your comments.Is this a forum, or a place where certain people control what is said?If you choose wax as your choice that's fine.

What I'm am trying to say is that there are products that are better than wax,and have as good a shine or better. I use one all the time. I am not trying to sell anyone the Brooklyn Bridge,but to offer what I have learned.

.
 
As long as your clientle is happy then thats all that matters. Like Todd said earlier, these detailing forums cater to the pickest of the picky :spy:






JP, Good to see you posting here :rockon:
 
billd55 said:
You may not agree with what I am saying,but I did not come into to this forum the way JaredPointer has. I never had any intention to push my product
I use on anyone , so I do not understand why he assumes that this is my motive.I appreciate everyone else for their civil responses, and I respect your comments.Is this a forum, or a place where certain people control what is said?If you choose wax as your choice that's fine.

What I'm am trying to say is that there are products that are better than wax,and have as good a shine or better. I use one all the time. I am not trying to sell anyone the Brooklyn Bridge,but to offer what I have learned.

.
Click to expand...


Well, I'm not going to be the one to ridicule you. I will open my mind to your ideas if you promise to open yours to ours :2 cents:

Welcome to Truth In Detailing. Hope to see you around :rockon:
 
Don't get us wrong. Many of us come from a history of many previous online forums and over the years we've been peppered with the newest, outstanding product that someone is pushing. Because of that we take somewhat of a jaundiced view of someone who is touting the methods of what we consider non conventional. I'm here at TID because we're not very dismissive of such claims but seasoned enough to want more specific info regarding non standard approaches. Basically no one can fool the members of TID with ridiculous claims because we've time tested probably everything and we understand how just about everything works in this business! We are just a little more critical of things but that's not necessarily a bad thing for the membership.

Having said that I think we're looking for a little more evidence or information that supports what you're saying. I think you'll find we are very open to anything someone finds successful. Just bear in mind that many of us may not agree and that's ok. We all realize that each of us finds something that works and I for one appreciate that individual sharing it here. Many of us maintain an open mind whether it's from experience or inexperience. Again, with that said I'm interested in hearing more of your experience.
 
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