American or Foreign

[Monte78Carlo2k1]

Thankyou Kanchou nice link.

Im not putting down Toyota, ect but I dont believe they deserve all the praise they're getting. The gas mileage was another point of which has me doubt Toyota and Honda, the Prius was trying to claim what was 68 mpg when it first came out but all acutallity it wasnt getting that. They get good gas mileage but its automatically assumed better quality and mileage you buy foreign. I believe its this year every vehicle that will be in the US has new terms they have to follow in how they come to a conclusion of estimated mpg (hwy,city). Lets see how many drops of mpg on all stickers foreign and domestic.

 

[metload1]

Actually, statistically, no its not a fact.



Perception Is Reality



3 million Toyotas recalled in a couple season's time last year?



Statistics and conclusions are not one in the same. One can draw conclusions based on statistics, but the conclusion is not a fact. It is an interpretation of the statistical data.



It would be just as wrong to read that article, then say "2006 Toyotas aren't as reliable as 2006 GM vehicles and its provable statistically."





This is more of a case of perceptions. Many people will hear 'american cars arent reliable' and just nod based on perceptions of quality exuded by foreign cars without any personal, or researched info to confirm it themselves. Now that Toyota has unseated one of Detroit as the big seller, lets wait a few years and see if they can maintain that perception while outselling the competion.

I read somewhere recently that Toyota has the least problems per 100 vehicles than any other major car company in existence, and VW had the most, that's where I got that statement from. That sounds like pretty good evidence to me although I can understand your side of the argument. One thing though, in my opinion recalls are not a factor when I personally look at reliability. All cars have recalls, American, and foreign, except with American cars there are recalls and many trips to the car shop. What Danase said is another good point to consider as well, I would rather have a company that recalls cars and fixes the problem than let it go for a while first. Personally, when I look at reliability I look at how many times am I going to have my car serviced and parts replaced at my expense.



Also, that article only compares one model year of cars. One really needs to compare the last 10 years to get a good idea of what kind of reliability cars from a particular car company generally has.

 

[imported_Nimble]

Yeah, Toyota didn't get known for it's reliability for no reason. Our family has had numerous Toyota's that went WELL over 100K with not one single problem, not even a cooling system revamp needed. And their trucks? Ford wishes they had that reliability. You don't see to many mid 90's Ford's with 250K still running with nary a problem do you? I drive a Toyota, and proud of it. They make some of the finest autos on the road. Go drive the new Camry and tell me that's not the case. and for less than 20 grand.

 

[metload1]

Thankyou Kanchou nice link.

Im not putting down Toyota, ect but I dont believe they deserve all the praise they're getting. The gas mileage was another point of which has me doubt Toyota and Honda, the Prius was trying to claim what was 68 mpg when it first came out but all acutallity it wasnt getting that. They get good gas mileage but its automatically assumed better quality and mileage you buy foreign. I believe its this year every vehicle that will be in the US has new terms they have to follow in how they come to a conclusion of estimated mpg (hwy,city). Lets see how many drops of mpg on all stickers foreign and domestic.

In my experience very few American cars get the gas mileage they say they are supposed to get as well, that's not just a foreign thing.



Although - and I've never seen this before - my mother's car gets better gas mileage than it's rated at. She's supposed to get 38 MPG on the highway and she gets 42. It's an 07 Camry hybrid.

 

[SpoiledMan]

Yeah, as far as gas mileage goes, we drove across country in our rather loaded Odyssey last summer with the air running most of the way along with many electric accessories and were getting ~27-29 MPG and we weren't exactly driving the speed limit. IIRC, it was rated 26-27 on the window.

 

[Monte78Carlo2k1]

I didnt mean foriegn only does the high mpg and not actually get it. Sorry domestic as well has the same problem. Only difference is the the Prius claimed 68mpg and wasnt getting it; it was only getting like 30 or 40 mpg big difference from 68mpg. That was my point.

 

[SpoiledMan]

I didnt mean foriegn only does the high mpg and not actually get it. Sorry domestic as well has the same problem. Only difference is the the Prius claimed 68mpg and wasnt getting it; it was only getting like 30 or 40 mpg big difference from 68mpg. That was my point.

Is that Toyota's fault or the agency that gave it the mileage rating?

 

[Monte78Carlo2k1]

Is that Toyota's fault or the agency that gave it the mileage rating?

No the automotive companies pick a person on that particular program with in the company and have them drive it on a course. From there the automotive company turns in the ratings...therefore I would say its Toyota's fault.

 

[metload1]

I think the new ones are rated @ 60 MPG but get about 55. There's also a combined mileage but I forgot what it was.



Here it is:



City: 60

Highway: 51

Combined: 55



So actually they're pretty dead on now (with the combined number).

 

[metload1]

No the automotive companies pick a person on that particular program with in the company and have them drive it on a course. From there the automotive company turns in the ratings...therefore I would say its Toyota's fault.

Yeah, there really needs to be a new way of rating gas mileage. Isn't there some new standard now or something? I thought I heard that but I may be wrong.

 

[Kanchou]

....One thing though, in my opinion recalls are not a factor when I personally look at reliability. All cars have recalls, American, and foreign, except with American cars there are recalls and many trips to the car shop. What Danase said is another good point to consider as well, I would rather have a company that recalls cars and fixes the problem than let it go for a while first. Personally, when I look at reliability I look at how many times am I going to have my car serviced and parts replaced at my expense.



Also, that article only compares one model year of cars. One really needs to compare the last 10 years to get a good idea of what kind of reliability cars from a particular car company generally has.

did you read the whole article, then? ;p



It was also talking about how Toyota was under investigation for delaying and NOT starting a recall sooner than it did. ;p



(i'm not argueing one way or the other, afterall I bought a Subaru. My point is more on analytical thinking, here...)



And did you have a link to the 'per 100 cars' article? I'm curious to see what timeframe that was sampled during...



...as far as the milage, blame the Government milage rating method. Its needed overhauled for more than 25 years.

 

[SpoiledMan]

Remember that even if it is only 100 PPC that it doesn't say WHAT KIND of problems they are. A faulty switch is treated the same as a transmission that doesn't work.



Please understand that I'm not a basher for either purpose. Though I have a few Honda products (lawnmower included) I know firsthand that quality has gone down. I have a '95 Legend that just turned 100k and my Odyssey just turned 100k however it's a 2000. Other than paint issues and a cracked radiator that occurred some 40k ago, the Legend has had no problems. I just replaced the first burnt out bulb in the car late last year. My Odyssey on the other hand has had TWO transmissions replaced, interior trim that's coming loose, rattles, many bulbs burned out, door rollers replaced headlights faded to hell and back and some other things I can't remember at the moment. If it had been my first Honda, it would have also been my last. The current generation of Odyssey's seem to be much better built and even more fun to drive(yes, a fun to drive minivan) and both me and the wife are considering replacing our current Oddy with a new one.

 

[Monte78Carlo2k1]

Yeah, there really needs to be a new way of rating gas mileage. Isn't there some new standard now or something? I thought I heard that but I may be wrong.

Yes there is a new way coming either on the 09 model year I believe. Some late 08's may get it.

 

[the other pc]

No the automotive companies pick a person on that particular program with in the company and have them drive it on a course. From there the automotive company turns in the ratings...therefore I would say its Toyota's fault.

I disagree.



The regulators set up the conditions for the test. The course and measurement methodology are mandatory. So what if the company has a “ringer� that can drive better than everybody else? They’re playing by the rules and doing what their supposed to do.



If the regulations specified that the course be driven by multiple operators, not trained on that specific vehicle’s characteristics and the results averaged it would be an entirely different story. But that’s all up to the regulatory agency. They created the situation and if they don’t control it that’s not Toyota’s fault.





PC.

 

[metload1]

did you read the whole article, then? ;p



It was also talking about how Toyota was under investigation for delaying and NOT starting a recall sooner than it did. ;p



(i'm not argueing one way or the other, afterall I bought a Subaru. My point is more on analytical thinking, here...)



And did you have a link to the 'per 100 cars' article? I'm curious to see what timeframe that was sampled during...



...as far as the milage, blame the Government milage rating method. Its needed overhauled for more than 25 years.

Looks like I should have read more carefully! Now I see what you meant with that article. I'll check that out again.



I've been looking for a link but I can't find the 2006 version of the problems/car chart I saw before, I found a 2003 though. I'll keep looking and post here when I find it.

 

[metload1]

Remember that even if it is only 100 PPC that it doesn't say WHAT KIND of problems they are. A faulty switch is treated the same as a transmission that doesn't work.



Please understand that I'm not a basher for either purpose. Though I have a few Honda products (lawnmower included) I know firsthand that quality has gone down. I have a '95 Legend that just turned 100k and my Odyssey just turned 100k however it's a 2000. Other than paint issues and a cracked radiator that occurred some 40k ago, the Legend has had no problems. I just replaced the first burnt out bulb in the car late last year. My Odyssey on the other hand has had TWO transmissions replaced, interior trim that's coming loose, rattles, many bulbs burned out, door rollers replaced headlights faded to hell and back and some other things I can't remember at the moment. If it had been my first Honda, it would have also been my last. The current generation of Odyssey's seem to be much better built and even more fun to drive(yes, a fun to drive minivan) and both me and the wife are considering replacing our current Oddy with a new one.

You got a lemon! Sorry to hear that. My friend recently got a 2006 or 2007 (don't know which) Odyssey and man, I love it! I'm not minivan fan at all but that thing felt nice. I especially like the middle window that rolls down on both sides.

 

[SpoiledMan]

You got a lemon! Sorry to hear that.

It's actually quite the norm. Covered pretty much all the V6's mated to auto trannys from '99 to '02. Accords, Odysseys, TL's, CL's and some others I think.

 

[Kanchou]

yeah, that stinks. Every car mag that I would touch has said the Odyssey is a surpringly responsive minivan (liek Grassroots Motorsports, for example).

 

[metload1]

It's actually quite the norm. Covered pretty much all the V6's mated to auto trannys from '99 to '02. Accords, Odysseys, TL's, CL's and some others I think.

That's no good. I'm surprised they'd let something like that happen for 3 years straight.

Yes there is a new way coming either on the 09 model year I believe. Some late 08's may get it.

Sweet, that will be interesting.

 

[SpoiledMan]

That's no good. I'm surprised they'd let something like that happen for 3 years straight.

Well, it took a few years for the problem to get bad enough to KNOW that it truly was a problem. In '03 I knew no one with a failed tranny. In '05, everybody I knew that had that combo(various cars mind you) had had tranny failures.:angry I'm sure glad that I stopped my sister from buying that Accord she wanted in '04.