Glossequation
New member
Lone_Star said:
Only foreign cars IF they're manufactured overseas.
American or Foreign
- Thread starter Lone_Star1
- Start date
Only foreign cars IF they're manufactured overseas.
SVTContour
New member
I think you have to go with the tough love principle with American car makers. If you buy only American, regardless of the quality, features, etc. there's no incentive for them to compete.
When I was looking for a sporty sedan several years ago, nothing foreign could touch the fun-to-drive quotient of the SVT Contour for the price. On the other hand, when buying a minivan for the family last year, Honda got the vote. Ford and GM's minivan offerings are a complete joke.
When I was looking for a sporty sedan several years ago, nothing foreign could touch the fun-to-drive quotient of the SVT Contour for the price. On the other hand, when buying a minivan for the family last year, Honda got the vote. Ford and GM's minivan offerings are a complete joke.
I'll put it like this. I want the biggest bang for the buck. A good example of this was the 1987 Grand National/Regal T-Type. This was a car that could smoke a Corvette or Mustang GT in the 1/4 but not cost an arm and a leg.
Fast forward to 2007 and what am I looking at? A 2003 Maxima built in Oppama, Japan. Why? Goes back to the "bang for the buck" thing I said earlier. However, if I can't find what I want there, I have the following as alternatives:
...among others.
Fast forward to 2007 and what am I looking at? A 2003 Maxima built in Oppama, Japan. Why? Goes back to the "bang for the buck" thing I said earlier. However, if I can't find what I want there, I have the following as alternatives:
...among others.
the other pc
New member
I like things simple, straightforward, fun, reasonably priced, well engineered, well built and no bigger than they need to be. In the past, the big three rarely got more than three out of the seven in any one vehicle. The Europeans and Japanese somehow manage to consistently nail five to seven out of seven.Lone_Star said:
We have a pair of old sports cars, a Jensen Healey and a 1st gen RX-7. Lightweight, inexpensive, two-seaters are something American makers had never cared about. At least now GM is trying with the Sky/Solstice/GT, not perfect but definitely a hoot to drive and a respectable first shot. Let’s hope Dodge’s upcoming Demon is also a hit.
Our main daily driver is a MINI. The MINI’s combination of practicality, style, fun and engineering is unique. Again, the big three have mostly ignored the small car segment or just imported and re-badge the work of others.
Some recent efforts in smaller cars have been encouraging, the PT has been a big seller, but then the US comes up with something brilliant like the Aztek. US makers have also managed to screw up any momentum they had by not following through with new versions and evolutions of smaller platforms, choosing to throw their energy into big-a$$, high profit margin SUVs and such. (Note that Toyota aggressively pursues every segment they play in.)
When my old pickup truck was stolen I needed another reliable, low-cost workhorse vehicle. I wanted it to be 4x4 for snow but also have useable off-road capability. It needed to carry at least four adults with luggage comfortably and have some useful towing capacity.
Our other daily driver is an Isuzu Rodeo, nothing fancy or glamorous, just solid, functional and cheap. Explorers were all the rage at that time and they all came equipped as cushy mommy-mobiles, basically glorified station wagons. They were way more expensive too. I just needed a cheap, simple, people hauling truck.
And speaking of globalization , the only expensive part of the Isuzu that’s broken over the last 13 years and 170 some-odd thousand miles is the American transmission.
PC.
Im a Toyota guy so I dont have much to say. We used to own a Mercury (way back when I was really little) and the p.o.s. broke down everyday. We also had a Chevy once, was an ok car but once it hit a certain mileage point (i think it was like 150k) the thing crapped out on us. We have always had luck with Japenese cars and out of all of them, Toyota has been the best and it seems like its going to stay that way 
Lone_Star said:
I am in business and buy American cars. I understand the global nature of the business, but I figure if I am using the American tax system and depreciating the vehicles for tax benefit, I feel obligated to buy American products. I also don't spend a lot of money on nameplates - For example I drive GMC Denali rather than an Escalade. The Cadillac nameplate implies expensive - although the two cars were about the same price when I purchased - and I preferred a subdued image for my business. I also drive a Corvette and believe it competes favorably with Porsche so I purchased it. I could have gone either way with that car, because it is a private purchase not from business funds.
I have owned Toyotas - three, but in days prior to being in business for myself and the decider was price. Remember, at one time the Japanese cars were cheaper. No longer true, but it gathered them share and generated an installed base of pleased users.
As far as market analysis, I observe that Market shares for Ford and Chrysler are comparable to 40 years ago. The thirty plus points of share lost to imports came out of GM and took pricing control away from them. GM no longer has the luxury of pricing products to margin with a trailing market. Their loss of share is a management failing that is unforgivable and is the root of the US industry's problem. GM failed to react to market share loss and instead played financial games to keep stock prices high. It was/is a classic example of collecting reward today and pushing the day when the piper needs to paid.
I believe GM can compete and will. Their success will be measured in share and probably will require a shrunken product line to keep volume high on profitable models. They probably need to follow the Toyota model with a full line of products leading to the Luxury division - ala Lexus. Five brands is no longer a valid approach at their reduced market position. I have grave doubts about Ford and we already know that Chrysler's days are numbered unless they can find a partner - or another Lee Ioccoca.
Lone_Star1
New member
Well I am slightly offended about the engineering remarks because there is not enough paper or space here to write about how engineers hands are constantly tied when it comes to engineering. I can tell you first hand that American cars are probably some of the best engineered vehicles in the world when they are first concepted. What occurs is that the bean counters come back and say that to expensive re-engineer it. This cycle continues on until they get the price where they want it, be damed the engineering. Just wanted to share, as it usually is not us engineers that are the problem but the dang managers that make decisions and the bean counters. Ok rant over about engineers.
I am not a big fan of Toyota after reading about them covering up recall safety information that ended up killing people. I bet ya'll didn't hear about this though. I respect everyones opinion and preferences, but I wish we all new more of the truth of what these companies are doing.
Other, I agree about having utility vehicles. I think the reason many American manufacturers don't build them is because of the studies they do and people fill out that they want cushy and mommy-mobiles more then they want utility. Where as overseas utility is almost standard and cushy is not. Just my .02. Thank you all for your responses and I hope to hear some more.
Also, thanks to everybody to sticking to the question and not attacking each others preferences. Debate is good, attacking is not. Thanks!
I am not a big fan of Toyota after reading about them covering up recall safety information that ended up killing people. I bet ya'll didn't hear about this though. I respect everyones opinion and preferences, but I wish we all new more of the truth of what these companies are doing.
Other, I agree about having utility vehicles. I think the reason many American manufacturers don't build them is because of the studies they do and people fill out that they want cushy and mommy-mobiles more then they want utility. Where as overseas utility is almost standard and cushy is not. Just my .02. Thank you all for your responses and I hope to hear some more.
Also, thanks to everybody to sticking to the question and not attacking each others preferences. Debate is good, attacking is not. Thanks!
I don't think there's one answer here... As far as the Bankrupt stuff, I think its a combination of the Chicken Tax becoming irrelevant, and declining truck/suv sales. The big 3 have been living off the markup they can charge on those things for so long, they didn't bother with any major innovation. Now that japanese companies build trucks in the US and avoid the chicken tax, that advantage is nullified.
The other PC nailed it with
I think it would be interesting to hear what primary car each of you drive now, followed by a list of american cars you WOULD own now & why. (for sanity's sake, lets leave out the vette and the gt)
I currently own a WRX.
I would probably own a Chevrolet Cobalt. I had rented one to drive a 600 mile trip, and I had a sour memory of a late model Chevy Cavalier in my head. Compared to the Cavalier, the Cobalt (even in base fleet car) was miles above the Cavalier. I was comfy, the engine had reasonable grunt, lots of features, low road noise...
I'd probably own a G6 with the 3500 or 3900 engine. Talking about engineering stuff^^^, a pushrod engine with VVT is definetly an accomplishment. I wonder what that engine would do in a non-FF platform.
The other PC nailed it with
I think it would be interesting to hear what primary car each of you drive now, followed by a list of american cars you WOULD own now & why. (for sanity's sake, lets leave out the vette and the gt)
I currently own a WRX.
I would probably own a Chevrolet Cobalt. I had rented one to drive a 600 mile trip, and I had a sour memory of a late model Chevy Cavalier in my head. Compared to the Cavalier, the Cobalt (even in base fleet car) was miles above the Cavalier. I was comfy, the engine had reasonable grunt, lots of features, low road noise...
I'd probably own a G6 with the 3500 or 3900 engine. Talking about engineering stuff^^^, a pushrod engine with VVT is definetly an accomplishment. I wonder what that engine would do in a non-FF platform.
Lone_Star said:
VERY true. As a matter of fact, I believe America has some of the best engineers in the world. We may not be as book smart as people from other countries, but we have some of the best problem solving skills and creativity IMHO.
Here's my problem with GM. I drive a Grand Prix, and used to be a huge GM fan, then we bought a Honda... All these stupid car problems went out the door. We also ended up buying an 07 Camry that gets over 40 MPG, and has Toyota reliability. Companies like Honda and Toyota have their priorities straight, first of all they make reliable cars. When you buy a Honda/Toyota you make an initial purchase and that's, for the most part, all of it. With an American car you make the initial purchase, and you really need to add about $2000-$3000 to the sticker price to consider all the labor costs you're going to be paying to fix the stupid problems you will have after the first 40,000 miles. The "check engine soon" light started coming on all the time in my Grand Prix the first year we had it, and we bought it new. Now it's on full time and I just don't bother getting the thing fixed anymore, it's just not worth the price. Right now I have about $1000 in repairs I'm "supposed" to get done, and meanwhile my friends are driving around in their Hondas and Toyotas with 150,000 miles on them, and their laughing all the way to the bank. Second of all, they realize that we need to do something about emissions because we're destroying our environment. People seem to think that exhaust just floats away and never comes back, but what's in our atmosphere never leaves, it doesn't float off into space. Not to mention it's nice to get around on 2 - 3 tanks a month instead of 6.
So what does GM do? If their cars aren't selling the first thing they do is take the car, change the way it looks and give it more horsepower. Well, I've got news for GM, people aren't turning to Toyota and Honda because they want more horsepower, it's for the things that really matter such as reliability. Or, if that doesn't work they try to trick everyone and stop production of the car and make everyone sad and miss it, then out of nowhere they bring it back in hopes people will buy it up like crazy. We're seeing this right now with the Camaro and Firebird, which are pretty much the same things as the GTO and the non Z06 Corvette. Too bad for GM that's not the way it's going to work.
Back before foreign cars had a presence in America, the big three had it made. All of the cars had problems and they tricked American car buyers into believing that that's just the way it is... cars fail. They wanted people to keep trade in their cars for new ones, that way GM would sell more cars, and they could fix a few purposely failure prone parts and sell the trade in as a very nice used car. Then the Japanese cars came in and people are beginning to realize that a car can go for more than 50,000 miles without $1000 in maintenance.
That's just the way I see it. No more American cars for me (except for sports cars of course, I'd love to have a new Z06 Corvette).
Lone_Star1
New member
Kanchou-- Good thought
Metload--very well put. Thanks for sharing.
Metload--very well put. Thanks for sharing.
I don't think thats entirely the case. I think its more of a pride issue. From what my friends tell me, theres a reverse ad-valorem tax in Japan that actually increases with older cars, encouraging new purchases.
The reverse is true in most other countries, where the newest cars have the highest taxes added.
at any rate, competition is always good for consumers
imported_truzoom
New member
I drive an F150 right now that seems to have started falling apart after hitting 50k miles. I like having a truck because it's so damned useful when I need to carry anything around, but I'm concerned that when I upgade to a newer F150, I'll run into the same issues. It almost feels like owning an American made vehicle is a game of learning how to buy the extended warranty when you buy another American made vehicle.
Since I'm talking trucks, I'm probably sticking with Ford or Chevrolet for full-size because I don't think the Japanese have the relevant history or experience with them yet.
But, seeing how gasoline isn't likely to get any cheaper soon, I'm tempted to pick up a Honda or Toyota as a daily driver. I won't even consider buying an American sedan or coupe because I think they're all just ugly and seem to be failed attempts that defining the look of the future vehicle.
Since I'm talking trucks, I'm probably sticking with Ford or Chevrolet for full-size because I don't think the Japanese have the relevant history or experience with them yet.
But, seeing how gasoline isn't likely to get any cheaper soon, I'm tempted to pick up a Honda or Toyota as a daily driver. I won't even consider buying an American sedan or coupe because I think they're all just ugly and seem to be failed attempts that defining the look of the future vehicle.
I havent really read through every ones post(little long and i'm not much on reading lol) but I am all for the foreign. I owned a 97 honda accord sedan for 3 years, changed the oil once when I first bought it and never again(I didnt care for the car so much). The car ran like a champ the entire time. I have a friend that owned a pontiac grand prix and it fell apart in 4 years. Some one said hondas are built with american parts so does that mean I am for american? I dont know, whatever. Its just that no american company has anything I would buy. Car or truck. I like the Titan over any thing else. I would never buy a pontiac cause all the interior pieces just look cheap to me. NO OFFENSE if any one loves their pontiac. I would rather buy a civic than a cobalt. A wrx rather than what ever american car compares. American cars do nothing for me. My girl just bought a charger rt, nice yeah, but i wouldnt have bought it. Its just not for me. I do like the zo6 vettes, but if im dropping over 60 grand im going to look in a different class. I'd drop another 20 and get a noble. Hardly anyone has them and they are built in South Africa by a british company. Yes it does have a ford 3 litre but its not all about the engine for me, it has to look like something I like also. I dont know, I hope I didn't piss anyone off.
the other pc
New member
I don’t doubt for a nanosecond that there are some very capable people in the engineering trenches at US companies. Unfortunately, as a consumer, I have to live the end result. If some fundamentally sound design gets re-engineered by a bean-counter until it’s junk, it’s still junk and I don’t want to buy it.Lone_Star said:
As an engineer, I also feel the problems are far deeper and more subtle than that. Why are your hands are constantly tied? Why would they have you design something only to have the organization change the rules on you after the fact and demand it’s re-design? Because the organization is broken, that’s why. If they gave you rational criteria and reasonable constraints up front, managed the trade-offs logically and made compromise decisions based on maximum value to the end customer there wouldn’t be any bean-counter engineering.
And speaking of up-front criteria, where does all that reliability that people love so much in their Toyotas and Hondas come from if our engineers are just as smart as theirs? It doesn’t come from some JD Powers plaque handed out after ninety days of “initial quality� as the big three want us to believe. Again, it comes from an organizational predisposition toward making decisions that allow the engineers to create a product that is more reliable in the long term.
PC.
Kanchou said:
Good points, and that's very true, many people simply want to buy USA. It's a good mindset but unfortunately now there are some other more important things we need to consider that would help keep jobs in the USA. For instance companies make it look like bean counting is necessary, and that healthcare is killing them, but the millions the guys at the top are making could pay for a lot of better parts in cars and help out a lot with the healthcare coverage. But try and get a law that caps pay on the people way up high and you'll be hated by everyone. When people find out you want to limit their pay to a poverty-stricken 5 million a year they're ready to do just about anything to keep it from happening. In my opinion there should be a law with a standard ratio between the highest paid person and the lowest paid person in a company. That way instead of laying off people and forcing what workers are left to work twice as hard for the same money and then giving yourself a raise, you have to give everyone else at the bottom a raise, and if there's any extra left they can go ahead and take an extra few million a year. No one needs millions to support themselves or a family anyways. And this isn't even GM I'm talking about, but a lot of American companies.
Kanchou said:
I agree with that. US car makers simply didn't care when they had the market to themselves, and once faced with competition they imitated instead of innovated. There's a Zen saying that says "If you want to be like the great men you admire, don't follow in their footsteps - seek what they sought." It seems like they pursue the superficial elements they see in foreign cars, instead of coming up with their own way of achieving what those cars achieve.
But speaking for myself, I buy German cars because neither the US nor Japan have come as far making cars handle. VW/Audi and BMW are good, and Porsche is just otherworldly at it. The Corvette took forever to get a halfway decent suspension, the Mustang still hasn't got one, imo, and these cars are the result of 40-50 years of development.
Monte78Carlo2k1
New member
Lone_Star said:
My main vehicles will be domestic and will be GM no doubts about that. I have always been brought on in GM vehicles and I will pass that on to my children...scary...but nonetheless there are some things out there that are nice but I just wouldnt buy. The only foreign vehicles I would buy is Bentley, Porche, Ferrari, Lambo, ect only high end. In fact I will be owning a Bentley GTC and it will not be to far in the future...But yes I will always buy GM just some other goodies too:getdown
imported_Nimble
New member
Lone_Star said:
To answer bluntly, nothing. I do not like American cars. They lack quality and the styling I've come to know of BMW's, Honda's, Toyota's. It's not a money thing either, my $12K Yaris is built FAR better than a $12K Cobalt.