Jngrbrdman
New member
My criticism is always under construction. Does that count? 
#20 provided better protection than Zaino....
- Thread starter suginami
- Start date
imported_BretFraz
New member
max_man_94_01 said:I know how you feel...whenever one posts an observation or a theory outside the accepted norm or against a product, you are painting a target on yourself and be prepared to be flamed...
that so far has been my observation in this forum...
..ooops did I just paint a target on myself.....
Welcome to the club, my friend. Its not just this forum but all over the net. Free thinkers and folks who wonder what's outside the box will always get slammed by those who can't see past their own prejudices.
I think Deanski's comments about #20 are dead on. High in solvents, light abrasives, prolly an amino functional siloxane..... reminds me of Finish First or Liquid Glass. Not bad products (I used Finish First for a number of years and liked it) but not a modern product. I think LG has been around longer than #20. Heck, I remember that stuff from when I was a kid.
But I'm glad suginami has found a product he likes and is happy with. In the end that's all that matters.
Deanski
STUTTGART'S FINEST
Ah yes, good 'ol LG!!! Used to use Liquid Ebony prior to LG on my 1969 L88 Vette (sorry I let that car go-very sick car!). I remember the LG with an old vette on it from waaaaay back. At that time, it was state-of-the-art in protection.
BTY: I'm happy too can't you tell..
Regards,
Deanski
BTY: I'm happy too can't you tell..
Regards,
Deanski
Here's my $0.02 guess:
Black cars I have found really do get scorchingly hot in the sun, but that by itself did not cause Zaino to fail. Acid rain water, even mildly acidic, cause damage when they are allowed to sit on the car and dry out. This concentrates the acid content in the water and soon you have a shallow puddle of much stronger acid solution sitting on the paint. Both the black and champagne coloured cars would be subjected to this, but the difference would be the heat which is something that can accelerate chemical reactions greatly. This may be what allowed the acid rain to eat the Zaino but leave the #20 intact.
That's my WAG based on simple chemistry principles, and I could this happening, but I could be totally wrong too!
Black cars I have found really do get scorchingly hot in the sun, but that by itself did not cause Zaino to fail. Acid rain water, even mildly acidic, cause damage when they are allowed to sit on the car and dry out. This concentrates the acid content in the water and soon you have a shallow puddle of much stronger acid solution sitting on the paint. Both the black and champagne coloured cars would be subjected to this, but the difference would be the heat which is something that can accelerate chemical reactions greatly. This may be what allowed the acid rain to eat the Zaino but leave the #20 intact.
That's my WAG based on simple chemistry principles, and I could this happening, but I could be totally wrong too!
JasonC8301
New member
If someone wasn't turned onto Platinum, he wouldn't be praising it. I doubt he even heard of Platinum before meeting someone else on the forum, the quote "pass the Turtle wax please" comes to mind. Every product has bashers to come along with it. Hmm, $80, think how much you spend on detailing supplies. $80 is not a lot. Add up all the products I don't use anymore or gave away, thats over $200 already. Its find something YOU like.
I love my Zaino. I love my Klasse. I shudder at the thought of BF I or Turtle wax Rubbing Compound Heavy Duty.
Jngrbrdman will be trying Zaino soon. He will be trying most of the Z line (everything but Z3, Z9, Z10, Z18, and ZFX.) He will soon discover they are top notch products.
I think comparing a silver car with one product to a black car with another product is not controlled. If you had half the car with Z and the other half with #20 then you can do a comparison.
Crap! 40% of rain tomorrow. Hope I can still fit in my Klasse/Zaino test.....
I love my Zaino. I love my Klasse. I shudder at the thought of BF I or Turtle wax Rubbing Compound Heavy Duty.
Jngrbrdman will be trying Zaino soon. He will be trying most of the Z line (everything but Z3, Z9, Z10, Z18, and ZFX.) He will soon discover they are top notch products.
I think comparing a silver car with one product to a black car with another product is not controlled. If you had half the car with Z and the other half with #20 then you can do a comparison.
Crap! 40% of rain tomorrow. Hope I can still fit in my Klasse/Zaino test.....
Jngrbrdman
New member
JasonC8301 said:
As long as you are predicting the future right now and everything.... I'm thinking of playing the lottery this weekend. Any tips? :lol
I am looking forward to trying it. Just let me know when you are ready. :bigups
VetteToVair
New member
How are you guys determining that #20 is currently loaded with solvents. Let me know if my thinking is really screwed up here. SG is really thin and high in solvents(may be way off base here already). Because of its high solvent content i can completely clean my foam applicator by running it under water and squeezing. It comes out just like new with a faint smell of SG. After i use #20(pretty thick IMO) i can't clean the applicator for the life of me. This led me to believe that #20 was extremely low in solvents. Plus i've never really noticed any chemical cleanin action with #20. If #20 is so loaded with solvents, where has my thinking gone awry.
Deanski, where did you have these products tested and do you still have access to test products.
Deanski, where did you have these products tested and do you still have access to test products.
Deanski
STUTTGART'S FINEST
I have to find the report that was done many years ago B4 I moved.
The new report is also somewhere in this house... I'll find it.
The other thing people can do, get a MSDS from the Mfgs when dealing with products.
Look at bretfraz's comment. Not far off on what's in #20.
You could also contact Megs and ASK for the listing of materials used to produce it, butcalling them sometime gets mixed results.
Regards,
Deanski
The new report is also somewhere in this house... I'll find it.
The other thing people can do, get a MSDS from the Mfgs when dealing with products.
Look at bretfraz's comment. Not far off on what's in #20.
You could also contact Megs and ASK for the listing of materials used to produce it, butcalling them sometime gets mixed results.
Regards,
Deanski
KevinVanCaster
New member
Been working on my black benz SMR,#7,#20, topped
with #26 (4 coats of #26)
I have had to do this in stages to get it all done.
Had the hood all the way done.The fenders and roof were done
up thru the #20 waiting a day to cure before the wax.
Had a big rain last night, washed my car to start waxing
today...the #20 was clean the #26 had water spots
that QD would not take out I had to go to SMR to get the spots
out of the wax. Could it be that the wax is more susceptible
to acid rain than polymer?
Kevin
with #26 (4 coats of #26)
I have had to do this in stages to get it all done.
Had the hood all the way done.The fenders and roof were done
up thru the #20 waiting a day to cure before the wax.
Had a big rain last night, washed my car to start waxing
today...the #20 was clean the #26 had water spots
that QD would not take out I had to go to SMR to get the spots
out of the wax. Could it be that the wax is more susceptible
to acid rain than polymer?
Kevin
Deanski
STUTTGART'S FINEST
NOTHING CAN PROTECT FROM ACID RAIN. It's how fast you get to it to counter it before it reacts on the finish. The wax and Poly helps slow it's travel to the finish, but it WILL penetrate it soon enough. More so if it's sunny after it rained as they act like a magnifying glass over the finish along with the PH of the acid rain as it evaporate will accelerate the effect of the acid rain to the finish.
Remember, you're just slowing it down getting to the finish.
Regards,
Deanski
Remember, you're just slowing it down getting to the finish.
Regards,
Deanski
Kevin Vancaster, I think the #26 has something to do with the water spots! I have been working on the paint of one of my cars. The paint on the upper surfaces was oxidized(dull). 2 year old single stage paint. I clayed it, hit it with some old ditzler polishing compound, washed it, hit it with# 83, washed it, put on 3 coats of #26. That was done on the trunk. I then moved on to the hood. I got half of the hood done (3 coats #26). The other half, I had finished with the #83 and called it a day. It rained that night, The next morning, 6:30, before the sun is in full blume, I went out to finish the other side of the hood. WATERSPOT City on the trunk, and HALF of the hood. The half that didn't have #26 on it (just #83, not washed yet) had NO water spots on it at all!. I looked at another car of mine, that I have several coats of S-100 on, and it had very few water spots on it. I checked out my wifes car, that has a couple of coats of product that I got from a detail shop on it, and again very few water spots. I washed the spotted car and dried it with a straight MF(not waffle weave). The spots are gone! It rained last night again. This morning I checked it out, Ta DA, no waterspots. All I know, Is the #26 spotted at first, now it doesn't. Go Figure....
On thing people have to remember is that cars that are coated in something that beads water will tend to stay wet longer and accumulate more dust and sometimes water spots than if it were covered in something that sheets water, or even unwaxed vehicles sometimes, because the water beads up rather than just pooling all together and running off. But it's still better than not being waxed.
I believe one of our european friends (jgv??) brought this up a few months back...
I believe one of our european friends (jgv??) brought this up a few months back...
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
Hi all,
(as I pull on my hip-waders and cautiously wade into the murky waters that exist in the cyber world in the form of message threads on discussion forums)
Thought I would chime in here on a couple of things, I actually started writing this last week but then Meguiar's was closed Friday so everyone could attend a funeral, and I didn't fire my computer back up until today.
Those were products Meguiar’s developed for the detailing industry at a time when “Clear Coat Technology� was still being introduced and causing a lot of problems for Detailers using conventional products. It consisted of two new products plus some of the products in the Mirror Glaze line to offer a group of products that would enable detailers to perform most/all procedures usually considered necessary to perform a complete detail.
# M-1401 Acid Rain Correction Cr̬me РAggressive Paint Cleaner that utilized Diminishing Abrasives
# M-1501 Clearcoat Conditioner – Cleaner/Polish, much like #9 Swirl Remover.
The above products were given special colors and scents to make product identification fast and easy for people employed in the detailing industry. The Acid Rain Correction Crème had a “Cinnamonâ€� scent and a light brown color. The Clearcoat Conditioner had a “Baby Lotionâ€� scent and a soft pink color. #26 received a unusually “brightâ€�, almost florescent Yellow color that was later taken out.
What problem?
(Just curious, I have used #20 for about 15 years without any problems, it’s could just be technique or surface prep?)
#20 is a Polymer Sealant. The chemist here told me that this product is Highly Detergent-Resistant as well as Highly Water-Resistant, (not that you should wash your car with Dawn or any other detergent soap, but for those “Joe Consumer� types, #20 will hold up as well as many polymer waxes and better than most, to this type of punishment.
I was also told that one of the hardest things to do with a polymer-based protectant is to make it lay-down and bond evenly over a surface. Two of the chemists I talked to flat-out told me that is one of the features they specifically designed into the #20 formula, to… bond evenly and tightly over the entire surface. (Something they also told me most polymer sealants cannot do). I was also told another thing that is really hard to do, is to make a wax that works well on all paints. Key words here being, works well and all paints.
Just a side note here: Unlike many companies that only make “automotive car care productsâ€�, Meguiar’s can draw from their 50-year plus history of manufacturing “Mold Release Waxesâ€� to help them create… car waxes/protectants.
You see, a Mold Release Wax must create a “Barrier Film�, whereupon it is vitally important that this barrier-film lay-down and bond evenly across the entire surface, otherwise, the solvent emulsified polyester resins will stick to the mold.
Have you ever worked with Acetone and noticed how incredibly powerful it is at dissolving/destroying just about everything? This is the solvent commonly used to liquefy polyester resins, the same resins used to make components from Fiberglas and/or Gel Coats. These are the substances that will come into direct contact with the barrier-film that has been applied to the mold. (Gel-coats are simply the same polyester resin used to make Fiberglas components, except they contain pigment to give them color).
If the Barrier-Film fails… the mold will be ruined and the part being made as well as all of the labor and expense that went into making the part will be ruined, (not to mention the original cost of tooling the mold).
Meguiar’s is without a doubt, one of, if not the most recognized and trusted name for Mold Release waxes around the world. In fact, for breaking in New Molds, which is the point of Highest Risk, most companies will use Meguiar’s M-0811, Maximum Mold Release Wax, as the break-in wax. They trust this product and know it offers a history of reliability that has never been surpassed. JFYI
I often read of people having “Products Tested by a Lab�. Seems like a lot of expense for a product you don’t like?
Just for fun, when you say, “more so than any other productâ€�, does this mean you paid to have other products analyzed that you didn’t like? Again… just curious.
Seriously, where do you take a product to get it analyzed and how much does it cost?
* What kind of equipment do they use? Does the equipment have a name and how much does it cost?
* How thorough is the analysis and to what degree can they tell you the chemical make-up of a product?
* Can they tell you Specific ingredients? Or just general Classes or Categories of chemicals?
* Can they tell you the Purity of the ingredients?
* Can they tell you the order in which the ingredients were mixed?
* Can they tell you the temperatures they were mixed?
* Can they tell you if the product contains adulterants to foil an analysis?
And in the end… is it worth it? I mean, “find something you like and use it oftenâ€�.
If you like it, it’s obviously making your eyes happy. If you use it often, just the ACT of rubbing any companies smooth, creamy product over a painted surface with some type of application material, often has a �Polishing-Effect�.
(Thus, why I think that advise is so wise)
When I was younger and did a majority of my full-time detailing, I spent most of my spare cash on my Sanger Drag Boat, 402 Big Block Chevy engine 12.5/1 compression, Aviation fuel, (100 plus low-lead, a little over $2.00 a gallon most of the 20 years I owned the boat), and an Ice chest full of cold beverages. I never really thought much about paying to have products I didn’t like tested.
Here is an official statement by Meguiar’s on the Petroleum Distillates. they use in all of their products, aka, Solvents.
Water is a Solvent, it dissolves dirt. Not all solvents/petroleum distillates cause harm. This morning I put some petroleum distillates, (Chap Stick), on my lips to help them heal and make them feel better.
As I have mentioned before on this forum, while I understand some of you think Meguiar’s customer care service doesn’t provide the “Detailed� information that you all desire, (no pun intended), at the same time, they help hundreds, sometimes thousands of people a day that aren’t as experienced as many/most of you, that hang out here and wax-on eloquently, (again, no pun intended), on the varied topics of detailing
They help a lot more people than many of you think and I for one think it is unfair when a few people here blast them for not being able to answer each and every question to the 9th degree, especially when some of you here call and grill them just for “sportâ€�. It’s a hard job and they do their best to genuinely help people get the results their after. Meguiar’s goes to great expense to staff their Customer Care Center, more so than any other player in the industry… so how’s about giving them a break?
Sheesh… you have more information about Meguiar’s products than most people including me! I guess only web-based wax companies have products that re updated for today’s finishes?
I printed your post out and shared it with our V.P. of R & D to see what he had to say,
From R & D,
Formula was updated last in 1999 and before that in 1995, (Chemists stopped looking through a large folder after those two dates, he felt that should be enough). It now contains fewer solvents because of better technology and tighter EPA restrictions. He then mentioned further improvements made to the formula that cannot be listed in a public forum.
All Meguiar’s products are improved as new technology emerges and as the situation warrants.
For example, I have heard Barry say that #7 Show Car Glaze has been unchanged for over 40 years. I take that to imply that either,
A. Technology hasn’t emerged to improve the procedure this product was formulated for.
B. The surface coating for which this product was intended for hasn’t changed.
Either way, used correctly on the right surface this product does exactly what it’s supposed to do and has been doing it for as near as I can tell, 70 plus years.
Can anyone point to a product that has been around, unchanged for this long for the right reasons?
Change is important when it improves the product or the process, but change for the sake of change has little value.
Where did you get these facts?
Gasoline used to have lead in it and house paints had lead in them, but car paint?
Here is the ingredients as they are listed on a can of Gray, Ford Tractor And Implement paint from 1959
Mikes note: No Lead here.
Taken from, http://members.aol.com/naa60512/paint.htm
(he used to have a .jpg picture of the label on the website, I have e-mailed him and asked him for this picture for my own records. MP)
Note the use of Aliphatic Hydrocarbons. Looks like Ford was using the same solvents back in 1959 that other people are using in their, modern synthetic polymer products today! Wow, today's formula's really are updated to keep up with modern trends
I would disagree with this statement, especially the “Soft� part and the waterborne part. Some OEM use waterborne paint systems, but it changes all the time. The refinishing industry is still using Solvent-Borne topcoats. Primers and color coats could be either, depending on location and regulations.
As far as the comment about today’s paints being Soft… Two things,
1. If modern catalyzed paints were soft… then you would be able to easily remove scratches and swirls by hand.
But… you can’t. (Isn’t finding a “Swirl/Scratchâ€� remover one of the more popular topics on this forum?)
Even the idea of a Two Part paint system where the paint is Chemically Hardened implies these paints are much harder, (and therefore more durable and less prone to oxidation and degradation), than traditional solvent borne, evaporation style lacquers and enamels.
Chemically hardened, or catalyzed paints are incredibly hard. This is because the bond is one where two or more separate liquids have come together to become one. That is the mixture becomes a unified substance or Matrix, (Always looking for an excuse to use that word).
Perhaps some of you have heard of “Hand-Rubbed Lacquer Finishes�
Something “Old-Timers� did in the old days of nitrocellulose lacquer and acrylic lacquer paints.
They were able to do this… because these types of paints were SOFT
Question: Has anyone here heard of, �Hand Rubbed Basecoat/Clearcoat Finishes?
I think not.
At least not in the same meaning attributed to Hand Rubbed Lacquer finishes, which were hand sanded, and then hand rubbed using a series of compounds and polishes, (including Meguiar’s, we were around back then), until the person produced a high gloss finish.
Sure, you can clean, polish and protect, (wax) a clear coat finish, but that’s not the same as Rubbing one out in the traditional sense of the term/words, “Rubbing� or “Rubbed�.
(Been there, tried that, made me thankful for diminishing abrasives in a rich lubricating film and foam buffing pads)
2. Over the years I have seen many people make this Perception mistake.
By that I mean, even though modern, catalyzed clear coats finishes are much, much harder than traditional lacquers and enamels, (and this is key), they still scratch very easily!
Meguiar’s uses the term, Scratch Sensitive to describe clear coat finishes.
Because they scratch easily and on top of that the scratches are easier to see because the color coat underneath helps to highlight them in the clearcoat, people naturally perceive clear coats to be soft
Just an observation. I’m not saying Deanski falls into this category, but the fact is, modern paints are much harder than traditional, older paints.
(Catalyzed paints have a tighter pore structure, making them more dense, this is why they are less likely to oxidize, it is also a reason they are harder).
Solvents typically don’t streak, they evaporate. Solvents also don’t bond, that’s the job of the wax, silicones or polymers.
3M is “Huge� company. I don’t know about the rest of you, but if memory serves me correctly, typically, the problem with large companies is that they react slowly, not quickly. Meguiar’s is a small company that is able to react quickly. To imply that only 3M updates products to match current paint trends is inaccurate. Our chemists in R & D work with many paint manufactures as well as car manufactures specifically on paint, and surface coatings technology.
In Europe, Meguiar’s is used exclusively at a factory level at,
* Mercedes-Benz
* Land Rover
* BMW
And I have recently heard that, Porsche will be exclusive soon also.
That’s e-x-c-l-u-s-I-v-e.
Does anyone actually think that the caliber of car manufactures listed above would actually be using products on their state-of-the-art assembly lines from a company whose products aren’t up to date
It’s also used along side with everybody else’s stuff at the OEM level in at least a majority of the car manufactures world-wide, (if not all of them).
I think the fair conclusion to arrive at would be that, Meguiar’s products are updated to match current paint trends at least as much as any other companies, and highly likely, more often.
I know there are times I do not have access to a chemist because he is out of the office, (sometimes out of the country), working with car and paint manufactures to design products for use with future Surface Coatings Technologies.
So while everyone is entitled to their opinion, and for the most part are free to post whatever they like to on a public forum, remember… that don’t always make it true or accurate.
Well we can all agree on the last point. Detailing cars is something most of us do for fun, or for income because we enjoy this type of work. No need to elevate it to the combative level of politics or religion.
Have a nice day!
Like an old friend of mine, Jack Anderson said,
�Find something you like and use it often�
(as I pull on my hip-waders and cautiously wade into the murky waters that exist in the cyber world in the form of message threads on discussion forums)
Thought I would chime in here on a couple of things, I actually started writing this last week but then Meguiar's was closed Friday so everyone could attend a funeral, and I didn't fire my computer back up until today.
Deanski said:
Those were products Meguiar’s developed for the detailing industry at a time when “Clear Coat Technology� was still being introduced and causing a lot of problems for Detailers using conventional products. It consisted of two new products plus some of the products in the Mirror Glaze line to offer a group of products that would enable detailers to perform most/all procedures usually considered necessary to perform a complete detail.
# M-1401 Acid Rain Correction Cr̬me РAggressive Paint Cleaner that utilized Diminishing Abrasives
# M-1501 Clearcoat Conditioner – Cleaner/Polish, much like #9 Swirl Remover.
The above products were given special colors and scents to make product identification fast and easy for people employed in the detailing industry. The Acid Rain Correction Crème had a “Cinnamonâ€� scent and a light brown color. The Clearcoat Conditioner had a “Baby Lotionâ€� scent and a soft pink color. #26 received a unusually “brightâ€�, almost florescent Yellow color that was later taken out.
What problem?
(Just curious, I have used #20 for about 15 years without any problems, it’s could just be technique or surface prep?)
#20 is a Polymer Sealant. The chemist here told me that this product is Highly Detergent-Resistant as well as Highly Water-Resistant, (not that you should wash your car with Dawn or any other detergent soap, but for those “Joe Consumer� types, #20 will hold up as well as many polymer waxes and better than most, to this type of punishment.
I was also told that one of the hardest things to do with a polymer-based protectant is to make it lay-down and bond evenly over a surface. Two of the chemists I talked to flat-out told me that is one of the features they specifically designed into the #20 formula, to… bond evenly and tightly over the entire surface. (Something they also told me most polymer sealants cannot do). I was also told another thing that is really hard to do, is to make a wax that works well on all paints. Key words here being, works well and all paints.
Just a side note here: Unlike many companies that only make “automotive car care productsâ€�, Meguiar’s can draw from their 50-year plus history of manufacturing “Mold Release Waxesâ€� to help them create… car waxes/protectants.
You see, a Mold Release Wax must create a “Barrier Film�, whereupon it is vitally important that this barrier-film lay-down and bond evenly across the entire surface, otherwise, the solvent emulsified polyester resins will stick to the mold.
Have you ever worked with Acetone and noticed how incredibly powerful it is at dissolving/destroying just about everything? This is the solvent commonly used to liquefy polyester resins, the same resins used to make components from Fiberglas and/or Gel Coats. These are the substances that will come into direct contact with the barrier-film that has been applied to the mold. (Gel-coats are simply the same polyester resin used to make Fiberglas components, except they contain pigment to give them color).
If the Barrier-Film fails… the mold will be ruined and the part being made as well as all of the labor and expense that went into making the part will be ruined, (not to mention the original cost of tooling the mold).
Meguiar’s is without a doubt, one of, if not the most recognized and trusted name for Mold Release waxes around the world. In fact, for breaking in New Molds, which is the point of Highest Risk, most companies will use Meguiar’s M-0811, Maximum Mold Release Wax, as the break-in wax. They trust this product and know it offers a history of reliability that has never been surpassed. JFYI
I often read of people having “Products Tested by a Lab�. Seems like a lot of expense for a product you don’t like?
Just for fun, when you say, “more so than any other productâ€�, does this mean you paid to have other products analyzed that you didn’t like? Again… just curious.
Seriously, where do you take a product to get it analyzed and how much does it cost?
* What kind of equipment do they use? Does the equipment have a name and how much does it cost?
* How thorough is the analysis and to what degree can they tell you the chemical make-up of a product?
* Can they tell you Specific ingredients? Or just general Classes or Categories of chemicals?
* Can they tell you the Purity of the ingredients?
* Can they tell you the order in which the ingredients were mixed?
* Can they tell you the temperatures they were mixed?
* Can they tell you if the product contains adulterants to foil an analysis?
And in the end… is it worth it? I mean, “find something you like and use it oftenâ€�.
If you like it, it’s obviously making your eyes happy. If you use it often, just the ACT of rubbing any companies smooth, creamy product over a painted surface with some type of application material, often has a �Polishing-Effect�.
(Thus, why I think that advise is so wise)
When I was younger and did a majority of my full-time detailing, I spent most of my spare cash on my Sanger Drag Boat, 402 Big Block Chevy engine 12.5/1 compression, Aviation fuel, (100 plus low-lead, a little over $2.00 a gallon most of the 20 years I owned the boat), and an Ice chest full of cold beverages. I never really thought much about paying to have products I didn’t like tested.
Here is an official statement by Meguiar’s on the Petroleum Distillates. they use in all of their products, aka, Solvents.
Water is a Solvent, it dissolves dirt. Not all solvents/petroleum distillates cause harm. This morning I put some petroleum distillates, (Chap Stick), on my lips to help them heal and make them feel better.
As I have mentioned before on this forum, while I understand some of you think Meguiar’s customer care service doesn’t provide the “Detailed� information that you all desire, (no pun intended), at the same time, they help hundreds, sometimes thousands of people a day that aren’t as experienced as many/most of you, that hang out here and wax-on eloquently, (again, no pun intended), on the varied topics of detailing
They help a lot more people than many of you think and I for one think it is unfair when a few people here blast them for not being able to answer each and every question to the 9th degree, especially when some of you here call and grill them just for “sportâ€�. It’s a hard job and they do their best to genuinely help people get the results their after. Meguiar’s goes to great expense to staff their Customer Care Center, more so than any other player in the industry… so how’s about giving them a break?
Sheesh… you have more information about Meguiar’s products than most people including me! I guess only web-based wax companies have products that re updated for today’s finishes?
I printed your post out and shared it with our V.P. of R & D to see what he had to say,
From R & D,
Formula was updated last in 1999 and before that in 1995, (Chemists stopped looking through a large folder after those two dates, he felt that should be enough). It now contains fewer solvents because of better technology and tighter EPA restrictions. He then mentioned further improvements made to the formula that cannot be listed in a public forum.
All Meguiar’s products are improved as new technology emerges and as the situation warrants.
For example, I have heard Barry say that #7 Show Car Glaze has been unchanged for over 40 years. I take that to imply that either,
A. Technology hasn’t emerged to improve the procedure this product was formulated for.
B. The surface coating for which this product was intended for hasn’t changed.
Either way, used correctly on the right surface this product does exactly what it’s supposed to do and has been doing it for as near as I can tell, 70 plus years.
Can anyone point to a product that has been around, unchanged for this long for the right reasons?
Change is important when it improves the product or the process, but change for the sake of change has little value.
Where did you get these facts?
Gasoline used to have lead in it and house paints had lead in them, but car paint?
Here is the ingredients as they are listed on a can of Gray, Ford Tractor And Implement paint from 1959
Mikes note: No Lead here.
Taken from, http://members.aol.com/naa60512/paint.htm
(he used to have a .jpg picture of the label on the website, I have e-mailed him and asked him for this picture for my own records. MP)
Note the use of Aliphatic Hydrocarbons. Looks like Ford was using the same solvents back in 1959 that other people are using in their, modern synthetic polymer products today! Wow, today's formula's really are updated to keep up with modern trends
I would disagree with this statement, especially the “Soft� part and the waterborne part. Some OEM use waterborne paint systems, but it changes all the time. The refinishing industry is still using Solvent-Borne topcoats. Primers and color coats could be either, depending on location and regulations.
As far as the comment about today’s paints being Soft… Two things,
1. If modern catalyzed paints were soft… then you would be able to easily remove scratches and swirls by hand.
But… you can’t. (Isn’t finding a “Swirl/Scratchâ€� remover one of the more popular topics on this forum?)
Even the idea of a Two Part paint system where the paint is Chemically Hardened implies these paints are much harder, (and therefore more durable and less prone to oxidation and degradation), than traditional solvent borne, evaporation style lacquers and enamels.
Chemically hardened, or catalyzed paints are incredibly hard. This is because the bond is one where two or more separate liquids have come together to become one. That is the mixture becomes a unified substance or Matrix, (Always looking for an excuse to use that word).
Perhaps some of you have heard of “Hand-Rubbed Lacquer Finishes�
Something “Old-Timers� did in the old days of nitrocellulose lacquer and acrylic lacquer paints.
They were able to do this… because these types of paints were SOFT
Question: Has anyone here heard of, �Hand Rubbed Basecoat/Clearcoat Finishes?
I think not.
At least not in the same meaning attributed to Hand Rubbed Lacquer finishes, which were hand sanded, and then hand rubbed using a series of compounds and polishes, (including Meguiar’s, we were around back then), until the person produced a high gloss finish.
Sure, you can clean, polish and protect, (wax) a clear coat finish, but that’s not the same as Rubbing one out in the traditional sense of the term/words, “Rubbing� or “Rubbed�.
(Been there, tried that, made me thankful for diminishing abrasives in a rich lubricating film and foam buffing pads)
2. Over the years I have seen many people make this Perception mistake.
By that I mean, even though modern, catalyzed clear coats finishes are much, much harder than traditional lacquers and enamels, (and this is key), they still scratch very easily!
Meguiar’s uses the term, Scratch Sensitive to describe clear coat finishes.
Because they scratch easily and on top of that the scratches are easier to see because the color coat underneath helps to highlight them in the clearcoat, people naturally perceive clear coats to be soft
Just an observation. I’m not saying Deanski falls into this category, but the fact is, modern paints are much harder than traditional, older paints.
(Catalyzed paints have a tighter pore structure, making them more dense, this is why they are less likely to oxidize, it is also a reason they are harder).
Solvents typically don’t streak, they evaporate. Solvents also don’t bond, that’s the job of the wax, silicones or polymers.
3M is “Huge� company. I don’t know about the rest of you, but if memory serves me correctly, typically, the problem with large companies is that they react slowly, not quickly. Meguiar’s is a small company that is able to react quickly. To imply that only 3M updates products to match current paint trends is inaccurate. Our chemists in R & D work with many paint manufactures as well as car manufactures specifically on paint, and surface coatings technology.
In Europe, Meguiar’s is used exclusively at a factory level at,
* Mercedes-Benz
* Land Rover
* BMW
And I have recently heard that, Porsche will be exclusive soon also.
That’s e-x-c-l-u-s-I-v-e.
Does anyone actually think that the caliber of car manufactures listed above would actually be using products on their state-of-the-art assembly lines from a company whose products aren’t up to date
It’s also used along side with everybody else’s stuff at the OEM level in at least a majority of the car manufactures world-wide, (if not all of them).
I think the fair conclusion to arrive at would be that, Meguiar’s products are updated to match current paint trends at least as much as any other companies, and highly likely, more often.
I know there are times I do not have access to a chemist because he is out of the office, (sometimes out of the country), working with car and paint manufactures to design products for use with future Surface Coatings Technologies.
So while everyone is entitled to their opinion, and for the most part are free to post whatever they like to on a public forum, remember… that don’t always make it true or accurate.
Well we can all agree on the last point. Detailing cars is something most of us do for fun, or for income because we enjoy this type of work. No need to elevate it to the combative level of politics or religion.
Have a nice day!
Like an old friend of mine, Jack Anderson said,
�Find something you like and use it often�
imported_jgv
New member
:shocked if this isn't the longest post ever! (gona read it now.)
imported_jgv
New member
Mike Phillips said:
Comments:
I don't know about the others, but Mercedes uses/works together with Menzerna, not Meguiars. In fact, Menzerna has one of their development centers inside the MB complex HQ. About Porsche, well, last week I did a Carrera 4 where I tried Menzernas, Meguiars and 3M. Only the last was like a natural on that kind of paint. Both others were more difficult to work on it's surface.
All in all, a great post.
2wheelsx2
New member
Very informative post. Thanks, Mike.
I like that you put a lot of facts into the posts, with hard data. However, I can understand how you, being proud of the company you work for, may get defensive now and then about some assertions being made.
That's what has always made Autopia a nice community, where we can each express our viewpoints and see if someone has more up to date or accurate experience or knowledge.
Thanks for bringing this discussion back on track.
I like that you put a lot of facts into the posts, with hard data. However, I can understand how you, being proud of the company you work for, may get defensive now and then about some assertions being made.
That's what has always made Autopia a nice community, where we can each express our viewpoints and see if someone has more up to date or accurate experience or knowledge.
Thanks for bringing this discussion back on track.
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
jgv said:
Hi jgv,
First let me say, that tidbit of information is something that was given to me just two weeks ago during a presentation/update on international business.
I didn't "Fact check it" like I probably should have before posting it I just took it for face value because of the credibility of the person giving the presentation.
Second of all, If I have made a miss-statement, I will be the first one to admit and do what it takes to make it right.
To that point... I just sent your response to three of our International Reps to get their response and as soon as I get the "nitty gritty" on the validity of my statement I will post it.
I admit, I could be wrong.
If everyone will give my e-mail a chance to be read and responded to we will all find out what the facts are re:Meguiar's exclusive use.
I'm sure things are as you say since your there.
Stay tuned...
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
2wheelsx2 said:
Hi Gary,
I love working for Meguiar's. It's a fun job. I do have an open mind and I do purchase and test a lot of other products. One thing I don’t think I have ever done is comment on a product if I haven’t actually tried the product.
I like Autopia also because of the maturity level here.
(I have been involved in “Flame Warsâ€�, even started a few, suffice to say… it’s never worth it
Mostly what I wanted to do was to correct some information that I felt wasn't accurate about #20 Polymer Sealant and "Paint Hardness".
I received multiple e-mails after this post went up last week asking me what I had to say and at least one person sent Meguiar's Customer Care an e-mail notifying Meguiar's of the "Solvent" statements being made about #20.
So, I didn't intend for my response to be so much a defense response as much as I tried to present some more factual information.
(Posts like this take for ever to write)
I actually tried to include some pictures but for some reason, I'm not very good at the "Attach File" function.
I'm going to guess it's because the pictures are over 1000000 bytes?
Maybe someone can educate me on this?
hondaguy2582
New member
no experience with #20, but ill tell ya, #26 paste is a pain to work with, should be more like p21s/s100 where application and removal are easy. I am dissappointed in this product, and im taking it back to murrays tomorrow to exchange it for some 303 for my dash. Sorry #26, you have been beaten and replaced by s100.
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
Abercrombie2582 said:
Sorry to hear you don't like it.
Two things,
* Thin coats
* Surface in "Excellent" condtion
* Wipe-off material?
I just applied some yesterday to a Tahoe, as described above and it wiped off easily with 100% terry cloth toweling.
Did you shake well before use?
It's not a hard product use, (at least for me)
Side by side with S100, #26 leaves a darker, more reflective finish, (on dark colored paints, or clear coats with dark colored base coats).
(Just my experience with P21S)
But, ymmv
Now, back to the actual topic...