106FF and fillers debate

RAG

New member
I've seen reference to some having issues with having buffer swirls reappearing down the road after using Menzerna 106FF, or equivalent-based polishes. Some also feel that it isn't any good for removing defects, it'll only cover them up for a bit.



Personally, I'll have to say that I have had no such issues, in fact I never have trace buffer swirls or halograms show up down the road and I am quite successful at removing light to medium swirls with 106FF alone (obviously I'm going to use other products for heavier scratch removal).



I've tested for fillers in the past via prepsol or alcohol wipedown to make sure I wasn't just covering things up, and I've also simply applied the product via hand like wax to make sure I wasn't just covering things up too...but when I wiped the product off, the swirls and scratches were still there and I didn't notice any cover up (if it really covered things up, one would apply like a wax periodically, with no need to buff via machine, and the surface would look good).



Some cars I detail I get back every 3 or 4 months, some every 6 months, and some annually...and I can say quite happily that it's been a long time since I've got a car back and noticed trace buffer swirls or halograms. Usually, if there are any buffer swirls remaining I'll notice them right away and it's always been because I didn't polish enough to remove the wool/compounding buffer swirls from the prior step. It used to happen to me more often when I used other products and was less experienced to tell you truth; usually the customer would never notice, but when I'd inspect the car after washing, every once and a while I'd see an area with light buffer swirls remaining from the previous time I detailed the car...but I don't have these issues any more. And I've now detailed for many Autopians and part-time Autopians, and I've always made it clear that they can bring the vehicle back to me if any buffer swirls were to reappear - hasn't occured so far.



Of course, I'm open to others who politely disagree and who've had differing experiences. But I feel there are so many factors that play into this and the fact that others have had buffer swirls reappear...techinique, buffing sequence, lighting, etc.
 
Well, according to Jeff Silver of Menzerna USA, Menz does not contain fillers. Here is his post at another board:



I alway appreciate the interest in Menzerna professional products and the discussion regarding use and results. Interesting how an inanimate polish can develop a personality and become like a soap opera actor. Do we really believe that it "hides" or "deceives" when used? I'm sure that someone will correct me and tell me that I'm taking it out of context, but let's not make too much of this or any other polish.



Once again, for the record, Menzerna does not contain fillers. Oil cannot hide defects, but can actually enhance defects. Try washing down your next car with a mineral oil bath and deliver it to your customer and see if they are satisfied with the results of your paint correction! The oil is for lubrication and to reduce the heat generated from polishing.



The products that are being discussed were developed for commercial and industrial applications such as in an automobile assembly plant. The people that are actually using the Menzerna products are hourly factory worker and prefer products that are simple and easy to use that provide fast, assembly-line speed results. The learning curve for these working is quite short even though they generally have experience working with polish. They have NO patience trying to make a product work if it is not performing within 2 minutes. If Menzerna were as finicky as some suggest, you can be sure that the workers would guarantee it to fail on the production line and it would be replaced. Of course, if it were not used correctly, meaning wrong pad, wrong machine, wrong speed, insufficient time, incorrect pressure, etc then it would not provide the expected excellent results. Same goes in the detailing environment.



So to review once again (and I'm sure many times in the future!), no fillers, no deception, no kidding.



Hope this helps.



Jeff Silver

Menzerna USA
 
Man, I actually wish I could find a product with really good fillers that'd last 2 or 3 months...I'd find use for it for sure, and of course I'd tell customers "I'm using a product that both removes and hides defects, so some might come back"...or whatever.
 
RAG said:
Man, I actually wish I could find a product with really good fillers that'd last 2 or 3 months...I'd find use for it for sure, and of course I'd tell customers "I'm using a product that both removes and hides defects, so some might come back"...or whatever.



:nono



I don't think it is ever a good idea to try and deceive people.
 
Holden_C04 said:
:nono



I don't think it is ever a good idea to try and deceive people.





not really deceiving if he tells them some might come back, you could polish them right out and remove clear to do so and then the person puts them all back in the next wash anyway lol
 
I think the main concern for others is that 106 has a solvent that may swell the paint. hiding swirls.

This is what I have been told by a couple different people. They say that it takes a day for the very light buffer trails to come back. I have not tried this my self so I don't know first hand experience. Never had a car show swirls after a finish polish and FPII.
 
So one could just apply it let it sit and swell the paint and then wipe it off? Interesting how it would magically choose what part of the paint to swell so that it closes the defects.
 
Interesting. Never had this happen with any Menzerna with the exception of the glaze, which I only use for those who want a wax applied. Not to hide anything, just provided a nice base for a wax to flow on in most cases. Some higher-end waxes you can't use a glaze without the wax looking a bit cloudy.



Anyway, never had this issue with 106FF, PO85RD or mostly any Menzerna, but then again, when you hand over a car after polishing and protecting, who's to say they didn't run it through an autowash due to the weather, or just used a poor wash method etc.



It would be interesting to forward your experience with this issue to Menzerna USA to see if there is any cross contamination of a batch. Provide the batch number on the bottom of the bottle and provide as many pictures, timeline and what you may think is the issue. I'm sure you'll get a responce and may want your bottle(s) of 106FF to test to be sure that someone else did not tamper with the product prior to shipment to you.



Any way you can provide a manufacture with issues on the product can only help not only you, but others as well.:bigups



Keep us posted I'm very interested to hear the results!



Regards,

Deanski
 
I mean really I had an Audi that kicked my ***. This paint swelling version of 106ff would have worked wonders. Can somebody send me some of the swelling version?
 
Dent's & Details said:
I think the main concern for others is that 106 has a solvent that may swell the paint. hiding swirls.

This is what I have been told by a couple different people. They say that it takes a day for the very light buffer trails to come back. I have not tried this my self so I don't know first hand experience. Never had a car show swirls after a finish polish and FPII.



So the solvents In Menzerna are strong enough to swell cured automoive paint? Anyone else think this is bunk?
 
SpoiledMan said:
I mean really I had an Audi that kicked my ***. This paint swelling version of 106ff would have worked wonders. Can somebody send me some of the swelling version?

Who ever said it had swelling? Where did you get that info from?
 
Dent's & Details said:
I think the main concern for others is that 106 has a solvent that may swell the paint. hiding swirls.

This is what I have been told by a couple different people. They say that it takes a day for the very light buffer trails to come back. I have not tried this my self so I don't know first hand experience. Never had a car show swirls after a finish polish and FPII.



This is where this is coming from.
 
Oh I see now. Thanks.



I would not call it swelling at all. Menzerna does not have fillers. From different pros that have had issues, it was on soft paints like GM finicky black, some had issues with Infinity blacks after wipedowns. A lot had to do with rotary usage and trying to finish down with a white pad on these soft finicky paints.



Solution for rotary usage: Use a blue LC pad with 106, or if it is still too abrasive, use 87MC on a blue pad.
 
In my experience super soft paint can be marred by simply wiping the product off. The act of performing the wipe down could cause marring for sure.
 
SpoiledMan said:
In my experience super soft paint can be marred by simply wiping the product off. The act of performing the wipe down could cause marring for sure.



Boy, you got that right!:wall



Deanski
 
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