z-2+z-5+Blackfire= happy me!
- Thread starter samiam513
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In that last link it says "What we ultimately achieved was a group of polymers, based on the element silicon, that could work together to mimic the reflection characteristics of carnauba wax."
Im not a chemist or anything but it says its based on Silicon, /shrug
I think the only thing that matters is what the results are.
Im not a chemist or anything but it says its based on Silicon, /shrug
I think the only thing that matters is what the results are.
zaniix said:
man. you beat me to the punch! i was just about to post that silicone staement. regarding what really matters, well, i for one am all for the pursuit of truth, justice, and the autopian way!!! by the way, welcome aboard.:wavey
ps - i use BF and Z (unmixed to date). i like both.
whoa whoa whoa!!! zaniix, you have spotted somthing I missed. Good eye.
You have really gotten me wondering now. Zaino over Zaino looks good, Blackfire over Blackfire looks good, Blackfire over Zaino looks good and vise versa, but how can Blackfire and Zaino mixed be awesome? It is not just me that saw these results. My family, friends noticed them, and blkz28 did his own test and saw the results. How can this be?
They are not homogeneous.
I am going ot e-mail both sal and BF about this.
You have really gotten me wondering now. Zaino over Zaino looks good, Blackfire over Blackfire looks good, Blackfire over Zaino looks good and vise versa, but how can Blackfire and Zaino mixed be awesome? It is not just me that saw these results. My family, friends noticed them, and blkz28 did his own test and saw the results. How can this be?
They are not homogeneous.
I am going ot e-mail both sal and BF about this.
I mean what it comes down too is you have 2 differant products one thats awsome for reflectiveness (Zaino) and another thats really good for the deep wet look (BF).
Combined you get a deep wet reflective look from what you are saying.
The only thing left is to test long term effects.
1) is it durable?
2) Are their any bad side effects like clouding over time.
3) Can you continue to do coat after coat of the Mix?
4) should you maybe do Z2 then Mix then Z2? or then BF?
5) Can you do the Mix right from the start?
6) what if you also mixed in ZFX
I just ordered some Zaino yesterday, I am going to try it out for a bit I only got the Z2 ZFX combo since my car is brand new I dont feel I need Z5 just yet. Maybe later Ill give the BF combo a try
Combined you get a deep wet reflective look from what you are saying.
The only thing left is to test long term effects.
1) is it durable?
2) Are their any bad side effects like clouding over time.
3) Can you continue to do coat after coat of the Mix?
4) should you maybe do Z2 then Mix then Z2? or then BF?
5) Can you do the Mix right from the start?
6) what if you also mixed in ZFX
I just ordered some Zaino yesterday, I am going to try it out for a bit I only got the Z2 ZFX combo since my car is brand new I dont feel I need Z5 just yet. Maybe later Ill give the BF combo a try
3) Can you continue to do coat after coat of the Mix?
Yes. I have 3 (mabey 4?) on right now.
4) should you maybe do Z2 then Mix then Z2? or then BF?
I had z-1 then a bunch of z-2 and 5 then BF then the mix.
6) what if you also mixed in ZFX
blkz28conv did this. mabey he can chime in on that one.
Zaino is said to only be able to bond to Zaino. nothing else. Sal himself says that. He says he is 100% positive of that. Now we find this. kinda baffles me. :nixweiss
I will still use the mixture unless it can be proven to me that it is harmful. I see the results and many others see them too.
Yes. I have 3 (mabey 4?) on right now.
4) should you maybe do Z2 then Mix then Z2? or then BF?
I had z-1 then a bunch of z-2 and 5 then BF then the mix.
6) what if you also mixed in ZFX
blkz28conv did this. mabey he can chime in on that one.
Zaino is said to only be able to bond to Zaino. nothing else. Sal himself says that. He says he is 100% positive of that. Now we find this. kinda baffles me. :nixweiss
I will still use the mixture unless it can be proven to me that it is harmful. I see the results and many others see them too.
Brad B
New member
Harmful? No. Beneficial? That depends upon what you want.
1. It will not allow layering of Zaino. The BF or Platinum will REMOVE the Zaino with each application because of the abrasives.
2. It will be have the durability of Platinum/Blackfire but it will not be as durable as is normally is expected of Zaino.
These are the key aspects you have to consider.
imported_memnuts
New member
Brad B. said:....but the simple science doesn't add up.
Mixing Blackfire and Platinum (same difference) with Zaino is like mixing oil and water. Or more acurately, like mixing silicone and polymer. The silicone will not allow Zaino to bond. Hence, NO durability. Also, there are abrasives in Platinum/Blackfire so you will be removing Zaino with repeated applications. The shine you get is different because you are getting a tinted shine rather than an optically clear shine. If that's what you desire, cool.
Silicone is a wonderful shine-inducer. It looks great! It's rich, deep and glossy. It's also quite temporary and bonds with practically nothing. It's a key ingredient in many popular carnubas.
My point is this. If you want the gloss and durability of a polymer like Zaino don't ruin it by breaking it down.
If you want the carnuba-like look that is achieved with Platinum/Blackfire stick with that. A mix of Zaino is completely psychological in benefit.
If you want to mix things stick with peanut butter and jelly!
That is the strange part Brad. These two substances ( solutions ) are mixing. There is zero separation after standing ( one test sample over 72 hrs), No macroscopic micelle formation is noted and the results speak for themselves. Being somewhat exposed to physical chemistry during my training ( MD), bonding (cross-linking) occurs between the side-chains of the polymer not the central molecule (i.e Silica (Si) or whatever is in Zaino). This is very general but plausible. These bonds may not be physically as strong as the bonds created by Zaino or even BF alone but as stated earlier they could also be stronger or there maybe no bonding at all.:nixweiss No way to measure the covalent strength of these bonds beyond durability testing. As stated I am doing this fun experiment for appearance enhancement. This is not a thread about what you are anyone else should do but a sharing of info about what a few of us autopians are trying.
This is my hobby. I love playing around with stuff on my car(s). Some work .. some don't !
Than again, we could all still be living in Europe if someone did not have the courage to look beyond the horizon. JMO :wavey
samiam513 and blkZ28Conv
I was wondering what the current status of these tests ?
I'm planning to try the BF / Z combo this weekend unless you've discovered any problems.
I've got an '02 Atlantic Blue ZX2 with 2x Z5, 5x Z2 with Z6 between. Hoping to improve the "depth" of the shine similar to carnuba.
Thanks in advance for your reply!
I was wondering what the current status of these tests ?
I'm planning to try the BF / Z combo this weekend unless you've discovered any problems.
I've got an '02 Atlantic Blue ZX2 with 2x Z5, 5x Z2 with Z6 between. Hoping to improve the "depth" of the shine similar to carnuba.
Thanks in advance for your reply!
imported_Aurora40
New member
blkZ28Conv said:
1000 opinions aren't worth one test. If it's working and you like it, then there isn't much to argue with. I can't believe I just noticed this thread!
It's quite interesting. Thanks Samian and BlkZ28. Please do keep us posted with your continuing impressions! :xyxthumbsimported_memnuts
New member
mezzeta said:samiam513 and blkZ28Conv
I was wondering what the current status of these tests ?
I'm planning to try the BF / Z combo this weekend unless you've discovered any problems.
I've got an '02 Atlantic Blue ZX2 with 2x Z5, 5x Z2 with Z6 between. Hoping to improve the "depth" of the shine similar to carnuba.
Thanks in advance for your reply!
The combo is stilling looking great. Samiam or OneQuickGT1 will have to chime in about durability. After 2-3 weeks of using BF over Zaino and 2 weeks of applying the combo (BF/Z5 and BF/Z2) the appearance has not changed ( no hazing, decrease in depth and gloss, or separation from base coat of 60 -80 coats of Zaino allow). All I can say is that the car (black) has never looked so good to my eyes.:bounce
I love the BF gloss enhancer. It is very easy to apply and zero streaking and hazing. Dust attraction is as good or better than Zaino alone.
It is extremely hard to make a black finish look excellent under indoor lighting but this combo does just that. Outside:shocked , FANTASTIC!!!
I presently have ~10 coats of the combo on the Z28.
The only drawback is the drying time change, especially with the Z2/BF combo. It takes about 1 - 1.5 hrs. It can be buff earlier but I want to make sure the Z2 is also dried and has started to cure prior to removal (BF alone cures/dries in less than a minute). I found no advantage by adding ZFX by the Zaino proportions but I will try a variant by increasing the dosage and mixing the Z2/5 alone and let start 5- 10 minutes before added the BF protectant.
So little time and money... so many more experiments to do. Try this procedure at your own risk. I am doing the combo for appearance enhancement only. Durability is of no concern beyond lasting a drive in the country on a sunny day ( no Pledge jokes please). Why not just use a good carnuaba? The combo results are better. A long-term installation of
maybe required after application. :waveyJust heard from Samiam about deteriorating results. I will let him chime in and explain his problems.
As blkZ28 mentioned, I have also used this combo. It has been on the car for a little over a week, and has gone through rain, 90* days, and two washes with Z7. After all of this, the combo still looked great, and I even added a new coat yesterday. I have experimented with various ratios of the products, and that doesnt seem to make too much of a difference. So, all in all, I would have to rate this a great combo to try. Even some of my friends have toald me that the car is just awesome to look at for me, that is enough when non-detailers notice something this good. Until I see something wrong with this, I am going to keep using this. Like it has been said, a personal test is the best way to determine if it is for you!!
Regards,
Brett
Regards,
Brett
Brad B. said:
I'm glad at least someone else will step up to say that BF/Plat will remove the Zaino. If this is the case, which I also believe it is, layering is out the window.
Sal worked long and hard for years creating nonsilicone, nonabrasive products to counter the overflow of silicone based alternatives out there. Mixing BF or Plat with Zaino kills all of this hard work and defeats the whole principal behind Zaino. Can it be done? Sure, you can do anything practically. To me, that's like mixing NuFinish with Klasse SG, or something along those lines. IMO it ruins the pure attributes of each product on its own. Believe me, if Zaino wanted a silicone based product, they could be manufactured very cheaply, very quickly. I can't speak for Sal, but I'm sure he would probably think it's nuts to mix the two products.
Along Brads lines, it's like pouring water in the gas tank and expecting 100 extra horsepower or 300 miles to the gallon.
imported_memnuts
New member
Metallic Mike said:
Mike, have you used BF or is this just a baseless opinion. If so please state your results. This is the data we are seeking. Platium is not part of this experiemnt so please no comment needed about it ( there is no proven relationship between the two new sealants except , again, opinions).
Our use of this combo sounds like you are saying that we are breaking some kind of cult rules.
What is the "principle behind Zaino" Anti-silicone? Mike states, "IMO it ruins the pure attributes of each product on its own." Again another opinion?:nixweiss
Please Mike, this is an experiment not a you must do or what is your opinion thread. Opinions have ( as we say in the Army) zero effective range.
As a personal note: When I purchased Zaino I did not enroll in a club or following of the rules of it's usage. There are not signs on my car(s) stating that I use any product or combination of such. I did not swear to only use Zaino or any product "only as directed".
My goal is to seek the best appearing finish to my eyes and if fellow car owners like the look and state so is just added gratification.
As stated earlier this is an exercise of appearance enhancement. Not ," I found something better than Zaino.":wavey
I'd like to think of it as fact myself. It's a fact that Zaino is nonsilicone, it's a fact that BF/Plat is loaded with it. I can certainly understand the willingness to experiement, but again it's like mixing saline (sp?) with silicone in implants. It's a fact that Zaino will not crosslink over or with silicone. So, I'm simply a bit confused by the experiments which are taking place.
And, I'd like to think my "opinion" counts as much as the next person, if only to show those who may not be familar with either product that this is not the proper usage behind them, and likewise they shouldn't expect miraculous results. Are you then saying Brad's opinion doesn't count either because he stated the facts behind such things...:nixweiss If opinions have "zero effective range" what are we doing here in the first place? Forums are all about opinions. Would you mix drugs and alcohol for the ultimate buzz? Some things just don't mix....
I'm not saying you're going to harm your car(s) or anything like that. I am saying that products are designed to work best independantly of each other, that's all. I guess my mind is telling me that "oil and water" are being mixed and trying to be used as engine oil, to put it another way. My brain tells me, "does not compute." You see, from my years of education I was taught to think critically and accurately. I guess I tend to overanalyze things, but that's what I do. Hey, I'm an analyst by trade! I'm not trying to spoil your experiment or your fun, just providing my take on what I see and know.... Breaking the rules is what ultimately leads to learning and innovation, but in my mind, some rules are made to be followed, while others can be stretched. And, I guess everyone has their own limit as to what to follow and what to break, both personally and professionally. OK, I've exceeded my limit, I'm out....
:wavey
And, I'd like to think my "opinion" counts as much as the next person, if only to show those who may not be familar with either product that this is not the proper usage behind them, and likewise they shouldn't expect miraculous results. Are you then saying Brad's opinion doesn't count either because he stated the facts behind such things...:nixweiss If opinions have "zero effective range" what are we doing here in the first place? Forums are all about opinions. Would you mix drugs and alcohol for the ultimate buzz? Some things just don't mix....
I'm not saying you're going to harm your car(s) or anything like that. I am saying that products are designed to work best independantly of each other, that's all. I guess my mind is telling me that "oil and water" are being mixed and trying to be used as engine oil, to put it another way. My brain tells me, "does not compute." You see, from my years of education I was taught to think critically and accurately. I guess I tend to overanalyze things, but that's what I do. Hey, I'm an analyst by trade! I'm not trying to spoil your experiment or your fun, just providing my take on what I see and know.... Breaking the rules is what ultimately leads to learning and innovation, but in my mind, some rules are made to be followed, while others can be stretched. And, I guess everyone has their own limit as to what to follow and what to break, both personally and professionally. OK, I've exceeded my limit, I'm out....
:wavey
chevyguy28
New member
samiam513 said:
What were you referring to that I said? Brad B made the comments about water and oil not mixing.
For discussion sake, let's differentiate between acrylic forumulas (such as Klasse) and polymer formulas. WE often call Klasse and Zaino polymer products, but is that what they are? Or are they acrylic polymers? Just acrylics? 3M paste wax has polymers in it. Does that mean it is durable? No. If BF or even Platinum have polymers in it, it does not mean they are sealants, nor does it mean they are durable.
In any case, my three product run off on my test vehicle starts tonight. Regular washing will only help degrade those products with heavy concentrations of silicone oil. Those that do not will last longer. That is my prediction, only a test will see how it pans out.
imported_memnuts
New member
Metallic Mike said:
Yes, Mike your opinions do count especially the ones based on your many experiences with detailing.:xyxthumbs .
But to denigrate an experiment ( and this has always been stated has such) based on hearsay ( BF and Platium are the same product, if so please give references) is unfair to the experimenters and your credibility. There are certain truths, oil and water to do not mix. BF has an oil ( mineral spirits of some sort) in combination with its water-based components. In order for this product alone to be stable an emulsifier was probably added. What is to say that this same emulsifier also allows Zaino to co-exist in solution with the BF's components forming a stable emulsion. From the actually macroscopic appearance of the BF/Zaino combo, this is the case.
We do not know what is the core element is in Zaino ( BF it is Si (silica)). Is it possible that it is something in the same periodic table family ( C, Ge,Pb (lead) unlikely,etc.) is the backbone of Zaino. If so bonding ( cross-linking) is quite possible. These are thing that we can not answer with certainity without knowing the secrets of each company. So what are we left with, empirical experimentation and observations. True science.. not even close. Results repeatable... crudely ...Yes. Fun... extremely.
I stated that so far we have gotten mixed results on durability. this is important. Why? I am looking for appearance enhancement. Someone else may be looking for durability and appearance enhancement with emphasis on durability.
This is just an experiment
I should not have probably outlawed opinions. Sorry Mike. I should have stated that the presentation of unproven relationships ( i.e BF= Platium, BF is/has abrasive(s) and unproven or witnessed incompatibilities (BF & Zaino) is unfair. Poor choice of words on my part.:bow
Illicit drug-free body.
blkZ28Conv said:
Illicit drug-free body.
LMAO! I notice you don't mention being alcohol-free though! Are you trying to say that these experiments are based on drunkeness??
I've heard some things certainly look better while intoxicated, but never a wax! hehehe I wouldn't know anyhow....lolJust messing with ya....
imported_Intermezzo
New member
blkZ28Conv said:Sorry Mike. I should have stated that the presentation of unproven relationships ( i.e BF= Platium, BF is/has abrasive(s) and unproven or witnessed incompatibilities (BF & Zaino) is unfair. Poor choice of words on my part.:bow
Illicit drug-free body.
blkZ28Conv. I've always respected your posts and I still do, partly because of the level of maturity you show and also because of the way you try to remain as unbiased and objective as possible.
However, I have a question... We all know that Meguiar's SMR 2.0 contains abrasives, right? However, based on GeekySteve's test for abrasiveness by rubbing BF, SMR 2.0 & P21S Carnauba on a CD, wouldn't it be reasonable to think that that test contained evidence of BF's abrasiveness? Not only does it contains abrasives, but the level of abrasives contained in both their UPP and Polish are on a very similar level as well? It did a pretty good job of convincing me as such.
Also, I also remember an older post where the PH of both BF's polish and paint protection were the same. Also, Platinum (which had a very similar initial product description as BF) was released just a few weeks before BF was. Now this all could very well mean nothing....but if you consider the possibility that BF and Platinum are the same product, then it all makes sense.
Just thinking out loud here.... I could be way off base for all I know....
Tony