I have a triumph motorcycle that has a very nice quality paint job but it's water based and therefore looking at it scratches it. I can make it look incredible and like new with a buffer and mothers sealer glaze, but thats not feasible to do often. I use microfiber but even that scratches the heck out of it. Are there any tips for this kind of paint to keep the scratches/swirl marks out of it? i doubt it but had to ask because this paint is a real PITA. I'll tell you, we may have a clean planet but it's no fun anymore because of it !
wter based paint care
- Thread starter dazco
- Start date
wascallyrabbit
New member
couple thing to check first are you doing an ipa wipe down after polishing to ensure the swirl/scratchers are gone. mothers sealer glaze may being concealing swirls. have you cd tested you mf to ensure that they are not the cause of further swirling.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Whoever applied the refinish to the bike, apparently did not use enough activator in the final coat, be it a single stage or a two stage-base clear.
If the correct amount of activator is mixed into the final coat, it would not exhibit what you are experiencing.
Grumpy
If the correct amount of activator is mixed into the final coat, it would not exhibit what you are experiencing.
Grumpy
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Sounds exactly what Ron mentioned. Has nothing to do with it being waterborne or not.
wascallyrabbit said:
It does concel them. But still, when i'm done it looks perfect and as soon as i wipe it with anything like detailer the MF does indeed add swirls. But i've tried 20 different MF towels and on this water based stuff they tear it up. You canb lightly drag your finger across it and the damage is huge in the right light.
wascallyrabbit
New member
if that the case refer to ron's statement above about the paint not being done properly.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
OK, change your way of thinking.
Here is "crude" way of understanding the situation and when you apply any thing to the paint surface.
Ugly women may look great with "make-up" but once either of you wash off the "make-up", uhhh, she is still ugly!
A real finish is real, no make-up required.
Grumpy
Here is "crude" way of understanding the situation and when you apply any thing to the paint surface.
Ugly women may look great with "make-up" but once either of you wash off the "make-up", uhhh, she is still ugly!
A real finish is real, no make-up required.
Grumpy
lostdaytomorrow
New member
How many miles on the bike and is it the original paint?
Guys...this is just the way this paint is. I am a member of several triumph forums and every single person has the same issue regardless of year. i think all recent triumphs are water based too so all recent triumphs should share this. So it's not a case of a mistake by a worker or anything like that. It's just super soft paint.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
I recently watched an hour show on their plant and operations.
They use modern finishes and application, until the application of the clear on the tank.
I did notice that after the hand applied pin stripping is done the clear is then applied by an actual painter over the base and stripping.
It sounds like they have an internal concern regarding the type of clear and curing of it.
Beautiful bikes, great performance, everything is right with the exceptiont, appears an issue with the clearcoat.
Grumpy
They use modern finishes and application, until the application of the clear on the tank.
I did notice that after the hand applied pin stripping is done the clear is then applied by an actual painter over the base and stripping.
It sounds like they have an internal concern regarding the type of clear and curing of it.
Beautiful bikes, great performance, everything is right with the exceptiont, appears an issue with the clearcoat.
Grumpy
Ron Ketcham said:
I saw that too, great show. And in fact the very bike it was centered around is what i have, the Thunderbird. The paint is beautiful when new or once you buff it and get the swirls out. I was considering having it clear coated with solvent based clear, but i remember i have used a silicone based cleaner on it so thats not gonna happen. Guess what i will do is try and find the absolute softest MF i can get and never touch the tank/fenders with anything else but those and wash them every time i use them. I have some like that but they are so soft and made of a synthetic that feels like teflon, and they will not soak up product so they are near impossible to use with the kind of sprays i use on it. I need a more typical MF but one thats finer and uber soft. Anyone know of something like that available locally? (i'm in so cal)
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Since my last post, I got thinking about a similar thing that took place at the F-150 line in K.C. back in the mid 90's.
As in any high production assembly/paint plant, sometimes things go wrong.
What was going on their was that the paint line guys were not bodyshop trained types, and when a spot repair was required, (which was a lot of roofs) they would reshoot a base coat and then clear it.
Problem was that they were using OEM materials which requires very high temp bakes and specific times.
The roofs, etc looked fine and the trucks could be shipped to dealers.
Only that the clear was so soft, dealers and owners issued many complaints and in many cases cracked or crazed within a year or so.
Have to wonder if this may not be what is going on at the Triumph plant?
Grumpy
Once we tracked down what their process was, had them change to refinish materials for the clear and that solved the issue.
As in any high production assembly/paint plant, sometimes things go wrong.
What was going on their was that the paint line guys were not bodyshop trained types, and when a spot repair was required, (which was a lot of roofs) they would reshoot a base coat and then clear it.
Problem was that they were using OEM materials which requires very high temp bakes and specific times.
The roofs, etc looked fine and the trucks could be shipped to dealers.
Only that the clear was so soft, dealers and owners issued many complaints and in many cases cracked or crazed within a year or so.
Have to wonder if this may not be what is going on at the Triumph plant?
Grumpy
Once we tracked down what their process was, had them change to refinish materials for the clear and that solved the issue.
i don't think this is a production issue, just the nature of water based paints which like many things today is a treade off for a greener world. I think i'd prefer choking on contaminants ! In any case, this isn't a recent issue that just cropped up due to a production mistake or such. they've been doing this and with the results i described for several years not.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
OEM clears, quality ones, cured correctly are not all that soft.
One little "line improvement" by an employee will often seem to be the way, but the paint supplier knows better and if a bit more informed on the material and how to apply and cure.
Seen this in plants all over this big world before I retired.
It may be that since they apply the clear after the stripping, they may have found it necessary to make a solvent change.
They are proud of the glass like finish when it leaves the plant.
One way to get this is to change the tailing solvent portion of the reducing solvent.
That often results in very glossy, but very soft clears.
Just ask Cadillac and what happened to them a few years back.
Paint was beautiful, no or little orange peel, but soft as all get out.
PPG was the supplier and they told Cadillac what would happen if they had them change the tailing portion of the solvent system, but the suits in the ivory tower won out.
For about 9 months of production.
Grumpy
One little "line improvement" by an employee will often seem to be the way, but the paint supplier knows better and if a bit more informed on the material and how to apply and cure.
Seen this in plants all over this big world before I retired.
It may be that since they apply the clear after the stripping, they may have found it necessary to make a solvent change.
They are proud of the glass like finish when it leaves the plant.
One way to get this is to change the tailing solvent portion of the reducing solvent.
That often results in very glossy, but very soft clears.
Just ask Cadillac and what happened to them a few years back.
Paint was beautiful, no or little orange peel, but soft as all get out.
PPG was the supplier and they told Cadillac what would happen if they had them change the tailing portion of the solvent system, but the suits in the ivory tower won out.
For about 9 months of production.
Grumpy
Well, whatever it is it's been like this a good 3 years i know of. And it happens also on the non striped single color ones, which meas Black ! You can imagine the fits those guys have !
So i guess i can assume theres nothing much i can do except being extremely careful, so let me ask 2 questions
1)-does anyone make a very small buffer? It's very hard getting to every part of the tank and front fender is impossible. Don't want orbital, so drill attachments are out.
2)-is there a MF thats better/softer than most that i can get locally?
So i guess i can assume theres nothing much i can do except being extremely careful, so let me ask 2 questions
1)-does anyone make a very small buffer? It's very hard getting to every part of the tank and front fender is impossible. Don't want orbital, so drill attachments are out.
2)-is there a MF thats better/softer than most that i can get locally?
Ron Ketcham
Active member
I have a couple of 3 inch velcro backing plates for my rotary buffers, use a memory foam pad on it for small parts.
Problem is not being able to "reach into" some areas, but excellent for other work since all three of my rotarys are variable speed.
My partner in our Grumpy's Garage has a great lath and is quite the machinist, he is going to attempt to make me a 2 inch extension for the rotarty shafts, don't know how much wobble I will get, which is only going to be known once he makes it and I try it.
Micro fibers are a real "hit and miss".
Try the 70-30 blend, from Korea, who knows who has sewn on their "special label", but the Korean mills seem to be more consistant in their production. Every cloth has to have country of origin on the small tag.
There are only 5 mills in the world that produce the fabric, China and Korea.
In my working with these towels, find the 70-30 is a little softer than the 80-20.
You may wish to contact Rob Regan about towels, as he is one of the most knowledgable and distributes only top grade towels.
You can find him on this site.
Grumpy
Problem is not being able to "reach into" some areas, but excellent for other work since all three of my rotarys are variable speed.
My partner in our Grumpy's Garage has a great lath and is quite the machinist, he is going to attempt to make me a 2 inch extension for the rotarty shafts, don't know how much wobble I will get, which is only going to be known once he makes it and I try it.
Micro fibers are a real "hit and miss".
Try the 70-30 blend, from Korea, who knows who has sewn on their "special label", but the Korean mills seem to be more consistant in their production. Every cloth has to have country of origin on the small tag.
There are only 5 mills in the world that produce the fabric, China and Korea.
In my working with these towels, find the 70-30 is a little softer than the 80-20.
You may wish to contact Rob Regan about towels, as he is one of the most knowledgable and distributes only top grade towels.
You can find him on this site.
Grumpy
Dan
Well-known member
If my paint was indeed that soft, I'd get the best quality microfiber I could afford and just use products that conceal well. My issue with concealers is some work well on some finishes and not on others. If you like OTC, NXT is a good starting point. Autoglym SRP is another. Certainly avoid traditional paint sealants as most will amplify swirls.