Will every little scratch ever come out?

D

dalethompson

New member
I got a PC 7424 a couple of weekends ago and really gave it a good workout this past weekend on my 1999 New Beetle.



I used a orange pad with Optimum Polish (OP). Worked it all in at one (speed setting), then moved to 3 and finally at 6. I couldn't believe how good the paint looked... unreal! It's hard to say how much (percentage wise) of the swirls and fine scratches came out but I'm guessing 80% probably. I took my time too and then followed up with Meguiars NXT (my fav wax). The Beetle looks amazingly good (so deep and wet looking) and I couldn't be happier with my new PC!



Should I expect to get every swirl or scratch out? I mean, for the deeper ones, I know I have to touch them up but for the fine ones, should I be content with getting a majority of them out? I'm a perfectionist for sure with my Beetle but even I have limitations and I'm realistic that I'll never get every single little one out.



As well, after using OP, should I use something between the Meguiars NXT or something afterwards? I didn't use the Optimum Opti-Seal I have yet as I wanted to put another coat of the NXT on it.



Am I correct in assuming that the odd scratch or swirl will be left in the clear coat and that I shouldn't expect the 100% perfect finish?



TIA,

Dale



P.S. I'm obviously still learning how to use the PC 7424, so any advice you can give me on products or anything else would be greatly appreciated!
 
You could definitely go up to Compound and get more if you want, but if this is a daily driver you'll have to learn to live with some of it. I live in Michigan, and after this winter I wanted to cry when I saw all the marring that had been induced during that time when I went over it a few weeks ago. I just don't have to time/patience to do a thorough compounding more than once a year, plus it's not a good idea anyway for fear of thinning the clear.
 
I think you really have to balance between "constant perfection" and how much your clearcoat is going to suffer ffrom constant polishing. There are certain imperfections on my cars that I have just learned to live with.
 
There's what you *can* remove and what you *oughta* remove, and then there's what you actually *do* remove, and they can be three very different things :D



Scratches that are very deep are beyond safe removal, simple as that; if you take off that much clear you'll do damage.



Scratches that aren't *that* bad should still give you pause for the same reason, how thin do you want your clear to be in that area?



And then there's the "what're you willing to do" aspect that determines how you deal with everything else. Yeah, it's possible to remove every mark that you feel you can *safely* take out; I've done it and so have many others here. But working by PC it's *NOT* easy to say the least and even when using a rotary it's not all that simple.



But it *can* be done- most recently I got the MPV as close to perfect as I'm willing (no marring left except the rounded remains of some very deep scratches) using the PC/4" for the RIDS and the Cyclo for a quick overall polish. It was in mighty good condition when I started though (I could've counted every single flaw that I removed, not like the whole thing had marring), and it still took me pretty much the whole day. I'd go over a small scratch many times, inspecting carefully after each one.



Consider that you will probably have to spend literally *hours* on each panel. Many, many passes with the PC and meticulous inspection with multiple light sources. Perhaps you should pick a single panel and see how nice you can get it, just as an experiment. Allocate a good three hours for that panel (gee, doesn't that make you want to buy a rotary ;) ).



On the VW I'd expect you to need something more aggressive than the OP. Maybe Hi-Temp Extreme Cut on a 4" orange pad (I've used that to fix RIDS on our Audis). I'd use that until all the marring is replaced by the H-T's micromarring and then I'd give it a pass or two with the OP on a milder pad. If that doesn't come out perfect then you might need a finer finishing polish (I always use one on the good Audi, my fave is 1Z Pro MP). Other than deep stuff that would be foolish to remove completely, that process oughta get it perfect if you put in the time and have the lighting (and patience!) to do the proper inspection.



But...do you really care that much? Life is short and if you just mar it again anyhow (when washing perhaps) you won't have much to show for all those hours of work. Nobody else will notice or care, so it's all a question of how important it is to you. And unless you can *keep* it perfect, I wouldn't expect it to be a big priority in your life. Autopia has a way of giving people some....uhm...perhaps unrealistic notions of what's "acceptable", at least when it comes to daily drivers in the real world. If it looks OK to you then it looks good. IF it doesn't then OK, try for better until it does meet *your* level of OK.
 
Accumulator that was a great post. I too used to expect a pefect finish and was wasting massive amount of hours to remove that 5-10% that 99% of the people won't even notice. Finding the balance between looks and effort is the trick. The PC just takes too long to do those medium and heavy scratches/swirls. I have a Metabo rotary and some UCCL and 1500 coming in the next couple of days and that should help me achieve the results I want in a much lesser time. Maybe I can aim for better looks with less effort once I master the rotary.
 
Wow, thanks to everyone who replied... everyone makes a really good point and that's so cool to share your hints too. I was hoping people were thinking the same as me in terms of having their car look amazing and finding a point in which to accept how good it's going to look. I'm getting married this Summer (in August) and I have limited time to get things like detailing my car done. I took 5 hours out on the weekend just for the PC and I was totally blown away with it's capabilities (and I've probably only seen 10% of what it can really do).



Accumulator: Excellent post... I laughed when I read your final paragraph. Will anyone really notice it but me? I mean, when I got the car all ready on Sunday and drove it, the blue (Techno Blue New Beetle) was literally gleeming and making people blind on the sidewalks haha. OK, I'm exaggerating, but it looked better than I ever had it looking before in 4 years of owning it. Outside, the swirls weren't noticeable, it was only under the halogen bulbs in my underground parking garage that made them stand out. My fiancee thought I was crazy when I said I could still see tiny scratches on the roof. For her, scratches mean deeeeeeeeep ones that you've put into the paint by hitting a pole or another car. So, you're right (along with Kapinnn)... 99% of the general population wouldn't notice them and the other 1%, well, would understand that it takes a heckava lot of work to get them out. Life is indeed short (as I've noticed since October when we first started to plan our wedding)... do I want my car to look incredibly breathtaking or simply amazing? The difference is negligible really in the long run.



Because I don't have the skill level as a lot of people on here (and the close resources to products either), what brands could I use that's more aggressive than OP then? Would OP Hyper be more aggressive or could I get something even more abrasive than this?



Thanks for everyone's input into this... not only do I feel better about this now but also slightly more normal haha.



-Dale
 
dalethompson- Glad you found my reply helpful, sounds like you're developing a pretty sensible outlook :xyxthumbs.



I'm actually in the same general boat, as we have a new puppy coming this Saturday and I'm gonna be spending time with him.. and that means less time for nit-picky detailing efforts (I take our dogs a lot more seriously than I take our vehicles ;) ).



I won't be the best source for product recommendations as I pretty much stick to stuff I've used forever (some of which are discontinued and getting hard to find). The only Optimum product I've tried is the OP.



The most aggressive stuff I've used by PC is Hi-Temp Extreme Cut leveler, from Top of the Line Auto Detailing Supplies . Another aggressive product that works by PC is 1Z Ultra/Extra (forget which name they use now). Both require a follow-up with something milder.



But I'd still consider whether you oughta do more at all, at least now. You just polished and waxed...it oughta be a while until you need to do it again and you can consider your options in the meantime. For now I'd work on wash/dry technique so you don't induce new marring.



kapinnn- Yeah, the rotary can be a *huge* time saver and give better results too. But IMO the greatest thing isn't necessarily finding the best way of *getting* it nice, but rather being able to *keep* it nice enough that you only have to polish on very rare occasions. I just love being able to simply wash the vehicles and get on with the other stuff in my life.
 
[quote name='Accumulator']There's what you *can* remove and what you *oughta* remove, and then there's what you actually *do* remove, and they can be three very different things :D



Scratches that are very deep are beyond safe removal, simple as that; if you take off that much clear you'll do damage.





Acc, fantastic post! I strongly agree with your views. It's just so sad that so many owners nowadays like to chase for perfection without asking the crucial question "how many times can I afford to thin out an already thin clearcoat"? I feel that we should be practical and realistic in our expectations when dealing with scratch removal.
 
Excellent post guys!



When I started using a PC a few months back, I was able to remove 80% or more of the minor swirls on my roof on my first try. I wanted the finish to be *flawless*, and I tried to see if another polish/compound/pad would work. Then Accumulator chimed in and gave me the same advice. Yes 99% of the general population cannot notice it, but being a perfectionist you want it where it's not seen by you. After spending several hours of work on my roof I was able to remove 95% of the swirls but the only remaining ones were the few deeper scratches that can only be seen under garaged lights. Other than that, my car was better than ever.



After doing my PC roof project, I moved on to my hood. It took me around 3 hours to do my hood and bumper. I was able to remove 90% of the defects. Then a week later I moved on to my spoiler and trunk where this was the part of the car that had most of the swirls. Since this was my 3rd or 4th time using the PC, I was able to remove 99% of the defects. I was simply amazed!



Since I have been doing my little mini projects in my garage after work, I started eating dinner late, and going to bed late. My back and shoulders would start hurting from the hard work I put in under 4hrs after work. I tell you, it's hard to make a DD perfect, but from reading around here and receiving advice from Accumulator, you can make it perfect but is it really worth all the time in your life?



My car will be 2 yrs old in August, and I wish I knew the proper wash and drying techniques when I first got my car, but now during this whole 2007 year, I've been spending time correcting all the wrong things I used on my car like T-Shirts and dirty old soft rags. If I knew about Autopia earlier, then I wouldn't spend all this time until now. LOL!



My car had minor swirls, but to the average person it's flawless. If I never had the PC, I would have swirls but to me and others it's considered scratch free. I plan on doing my 4 door panels and my rear, but only when I'm on vacation at the end of the month.



So once I finally corrected most of the car, I'd put the PC away and continue using proper washing and drying techniques so the next time I use a PC, it would only be for correctiong a "small" section instead of the whole panel.



BTW, I used the following with my PC:



6" CCS white/orange/yellow

4" CCS white/orange/yellow

SFX-1 Polish

Menz IP

Z-PC

3M RC

Scratch-X

Menz PG ( I don't think I'll ever use it, but I don't know why I bought it)

Z-AIO
 
I think, for now, I will concentrate on keeping the Beetle looking good. I still want to apply a couple of more coats of NXT to it, so I'll do that as well as use best practices when it comes to cleaning/drying it.



I just it all comes down to how you take care of your car when you're not using the PC or waxing it. I keep mine in an underground garage and it seems to help a lot. The wax lasts longer, I don't get water etching on it, no bird poop and no snow removal either. I should be lucky to think that my car will have a few extra years added to it's life because of all this (and my will to keep it looking as new as the day I bought it).



I thought about actually investing/buying the local car wash from me here in Toronto and setting up a couple of bays dedicated just for people to hand wash their cars (either you can bring your own bucket and suds or it could be provided to you). You'd rent them out by 30 min increments and you'd be able to dry them in the bay too (again, bring your own towels or they'd be supplied). I'd do this just for people like me who live in a condo with no access to a hose outside (or in a garage) and who want their car not be washed by those horrible foam brushes at car washes (or worse, the automated car washes). I think it would fly but I could be totally wrong too.



Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated!
 
Am I reading this correctly?

It takes hours per panel to correct minor swirls with a PC?

Being a noob, I expected to get the swirls out of my 95 M3 with one application using Meg's SB 8" polishing pad and AIO.

In other words, instantaneously, virtually.

Results were disappointing in that it appears there's no improvement.



I just picked up some CSS 4" and a 3.5" backing plate from AG along with a few other items that arrived today.





I've viewed the vids at Autogeek and they make it look like childs' play to remove swirling.

Work the polish for 4-5 minutes in 2x2 or 3x3 sections. So this is hyperbole?
 
I doubt it would raelly take hours per panel to get 90% of the swirls and stuff out. To get it completely perfect, sure it could take hours.
 
Danny318 said:
I doubt it would raelly take hours per panel to get 90% of the swirls and stuff out. To get it completely perfect, sure it could take hours.
Click to expand...



Did you read the entire thread?

Several posters said they worked for hours on a panel and succeeded in removing less than

100%.
 
Yeah, it does happen in the begining until you get used to the correct pad and product. I now take about 15-30 minutes per panel (more if 2 different products are needed). I get rid of 90% of them. I gave up trying to remove 100% with the PC.



That being said, I've had my rotary and edge foam and wool pads for a week now and still haven't had time to play with it. I need to go get some scrap panels... =\
 
Balthazarr said:
Am I reading this correctly?

It takes hours per panel to correct minor swirls with a PC?

Being a noob, I expected to get the swirls out of my 95 M3 with one application using Meg's SB 8" polishing pad and AIO...it appears there's no improvement...
Click to expand...



I'm spending *forever* correcting my '97 M3, which I assume has the same paint as yours. I'm using rotaries at high rpms/cutting pads/Hi-Temp Extreme Cut for the serious, initial correction. It's taking *MANY, MANY* passes with that aggressive combo and I can't imagine a PC, even with 4" pads, doing the job in a remotely reasonable amount of time.



The AIO is basically (funtionally) nonabrasive, especially on hard paint. And large pads don't allow you to bear down on the PC (they make it merely "jiggle"). So what you tried simply isn't right for this application, if that's any consolation.



The smaller 4" pads, used with a very aggressive product, might work if you put in a *LOT* of time. Get something like the H-T EC for the initial correction and follow up with a milder product. But don't expect even near-perfection and yeah, this situation will, IMO/IME take hours per panel. At some point I'd say "good enough" and settle for "a lot better". I'd hate for you to drive yourself nuts trying for something that's just not in the cards.



And yeah, the ad copy makes it sound a lot quicker and easier than it is ;)
 
Tunnel vision... I have been a professional polisher for almost 7 years and something ive learned... it can ALWAYS be better.. With that in mind consider who you are trying to impress. 90 percent of the public (or more) has probably never seen a properly dressed black automotive finish. It takes me less than 3 hours to "dress" a dark vehicle to a level that will literally blow the mind of the average vehicle owner. Are there still light scratches? probably, if you catch the light at just the right light and angle, but who is going to look that close? As a professional, i actually had to learn to look with my customers eyes (in your case try seeing it as the average guy in the office or at the beach or whoever your trying to impress).



That being said, The pursuit of the perfect finish is one of my favorite aspects of this business. Because it is a business i have to balnce product and profitability. But if resources are not an issue (i.e. time) and you have the desire, the worse you have to look forward to is a slightly better finish every time you try. Enjoy your hobby and keep your priorities real



Good luck
 
Excellent thread, boys!



I, like accumulator, have spent hours with a rotary to perfect a car's finish. When I think back on my PC days and to the time when I thought I was getting great results from the PC I now realize I was not cutting much of the surface. That's a good thing when you start using any machine on vehicle paint but I don't think the PC can be used for even 2 complete passes on a finish and get down to where you need to be. PC's take a considerable amount of time to really work at cutting down swirls and that's with an aggressive pad/product combo.



With regard to PROServices approach I can understand volume business and giving the customer something they think is exceptional quality work. I do this on the side and do every customer's vehicle like it's my own. I share his desire for getting the perfect finish and fortunately have the resources to do it. It's funny when I tell customer's how long it will take after I see their vehicle. "Could be 8-10 hours" I'll call you when it's ready! For those few who actually ask how they can maintain it I spent another 15 minutes with do's and dont's for the washes. Accumulator hit on my favorite point - focus on how you can avoid introducing micromarring with your wash and dry routine. Friction on paint is thine enemy!
 
Dale - Some people are different in what they see. My wife is exactly the same way - she can't see the tiny scratches and most people don't - but I do and it drives me insane thinking about it. My car is two years old and most people think its brand new when they see it - so I take pride in that and I am by no means a professional when it comes to this stuff. I'm still feeling my way around, but everyone on here has been a tremendous wealth of information and I appreciate it ALL!
 
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