Why not layer carnaubas?

3Wheeler

New member
Some people don't believe in layering carnaubas. For example, see NozeBleedSpeed and tguil's posts in this thread:



http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38954



I've seen others saying similar things. What I don't get is why? :confused:



I put on a first layer of s100 yesterday, and a second layer today. There was a big difference: the second coat added shine, depth, and wetness. I'm sure even a non-Autopian could see the difference. It may not be night and day, but it's certainly twilight and day.;) The car looks unbelievable -- I think I'm going to sleep in it tonight.



Anyway, I don't understand why some people don't like layering carnaubas, when the results are so spectacular.
 
Well essential the school of thought is that they DONT layer, thus it is wasted wax. The ability of the wax layer to sustain another layer is questionable, plus the shear action of applying the wax removes the underlying layer ( IMO )

People do 2 layers predominantly to ensure 100% coverage more than anything, not to build up layer thickness....
 
Hey 6cyl's, thanks for answering.



Unfortunately, now I'm even more confused (I'm getting used to that, though, being a newbie on this board;) ). If I understand you correctly, the second layer shouldn't have made the car look that much better.......but I'm sure it did! My imagination just isn't that powerful.



You say "the school of thought." Perhaps there's more than one school of thought? Eg., it's my understanding that some show cars have an unbelievable number of wax layers on them -- there must be some purpose to that. The show cars I've seen look out of this world.



Anyway, another day, another issue. I've still got more questions than answers, and I've been reading a lot. <sigh>
 
in order for you to beable to layer a carnauba, it has to be pure carnauba with very little solvent content such as Pinnacle Souveran, and the 'pink' wax. those waxes can be layered, and the pink wax is supposedly really good for the spit shine method.
 
I also used layered wax with great results. I applied like once a week and the car was a garage queen. The wax coat was so thick that I couldnt scratch the paint. Someone did try it on me though, and I jut wiped the scratch off with some more wax. I also would have a hard time getting the car cover on. I would trow it on top of the car and it would slide off. The car was a 1987 Chevrolet Celebrity, white.

So if you feel that its getting smoother and shinier and more easier to clean, then its layering.
 
This layering carnaubas thing is just one of those topics where we won't ever get everyone to agree.



I *do* believe you can layer certain waxes by using certain methods. I've had the "wax buildup on a spotless garage queen" to prove it. I've had my "multiple coats" panel keep beading much longer than my "one coat" panel. And yeah, I can often see an improvement after additional applications.



But if other people don't want to believe you can layer it, that's cool with me.



Oh, and as I understand it, the spit-shine method works because of the "spit". The water keeps the additional wax from doing a solvent-action thing to the existing wax.
 
2 coats of wax that is it for me ...going over the 2nd time where I missed the first.Some people put on 8-10 coats of wax thats fine its there car.In my opinion waxing a car once a week is not layering its waxing a car once a week!
 
nebody want to explain the spitshine method to me? Sounds like u apply one coat, wet it, and apply a 2nd or am i way off?



-Zach
 
I can definitely see a difference with a second coat of Souveran a couple of days apart, and for the better. I was using S100 over the winter and adding about a coat a week and that didn't give me anything other than a newly waxed surface. Maybe an interval of only a couple of days, as opposed to a week, can make a difference.
 
Like beastie, I notice a mild difference when applying another coat of paste wax a few days after the first. Whether they truly layer or not, I don't know. I do think that you are adding additional oils into the paint and ensuring complete coverage with a second coat of wax.



Beyond 2 coats, I think you are just wasting product. Put on 2 coats and use the time you would spend 'layering' on something else.
 
Hi Accumulator,



Your post says:



I *do* believe you can layer certain waxes by using certain methods. I've had the "wax buildup on a spotless garage queen" to prove it. I've had my "multiple coats" panel keep beading much longer than my "one coat" panel. And yeah, I can often see an improvement after additional applications.



It'd be great if you could give us some pointers about the waxes and methods you're referring to.



Thanks!:)
 
3Wheeler- The wax I got build-up with was Malm's liquid. The ones I believe I *am* layering (at least to some extent) are Souveran, Meg's #16, and Collinite 476S. No special techniques; I'm not spit-shining them, though I might give that a try. I *do* try to apply subsequent applications rather gently so as to not disturb the existing wax. Sometimes I feel as if I'm just barely touching the finish, just enough to deposit some wax on it. Does that make a difference? I don't know. FWIW, I don't really try to "layer" wax much these days, although I do layer products like KSG.



With some other waxes, such as 3M's Showcar Paste, I don't *think* I'm get much layering so I only reapply when it looks like it needs it. I believe that any improvement in appearance is just from more oils and/or replenishing whatever wax has dissipated since the last application. More a case of rewaxing than a case of layering. Still, it does look better than if I had not applied more.



Generally, if applying more [whatever] makes the vehicle look better to *you*, and you don't mind doing it, then go for it. If you think it's a waste of time/effort/product, then don't.
 
my way of layering was almost the same. I would get up that morning, wash the car and just wax it. Probably that same week I would get something new to try on and use it. I would strip with Megs paint cleaner. But strip only If I got really bad results, like stains (zymol green), or holograms (only once)



The old days, when paints could resist waxing over a dusty car and still not swirl.
 
Thanks all!



If we made two lists, with one listing things Autopians agree 100% on, and the other listing things they don't, which list would be longer?



I haven't been around here long enough to hazard a guess. Not that it matters, 'cause it's all good!:xyxthumbs
 
Since you point me out by name, Ill attempt to explain my unscientific hypothesis on this. I tried this little test about 6 months ago, when I saw another of the many layering debates that Ive read. I believed that carnaubas would certainly build with each layer because I know for a fact that other waxes will build. I really tried to prove to myself that it layered.

Bear with me here....



In Florida, surfing is popular. Any surfer can tell you that waxing your stick is not optional. Waxes like Sex Wax are usually a paraffin base(different wax, I realize) that provides traction on an otherwise slick, wet surface. You dont wax the entire board, just certain areas for grip. This is done by vigorously rubbing the bar across the stick, from rail to rail, in these areas leaving the rest of the stick unwaxed. This wax builds very thick layers with every pass because the wax sticks to itself, leaving a rough grippy surface. The waxed areas are a yellow color and they are up to a half inch thicker than the stick surface. The build is even obvious to an idiot at just a glance. This was the reason that i believed that carnaubas would also build.

We'll just skip the maintanence, etc. of this wax.



Now....

To test carnaubas, I used a Jesse James toolbox painted in black single stage paint and a cheap, lighted magnifying glass from Harbor Freight. Side by side, I applied Sex Wax, PPG and Mothers Carnauba. The Sex Wax built up very fast with each pass, just like on a surfboard. It was an 1/8 inch thick in about 5 minutes. This wax will build on most any clean surface.

Both carnaubas were applied once a day, over 8 days consecutively. This was easy since Im in the garage with this tool box several hours every day Yeah, I know what a waste of time it was but it actually took less time than typing this conclusion. I tried each on 2 different areas for comparison. One area was buffed after each application, the other was not. This should show any build up pretty quickly if the wax wasnt self cleaning. This totals 4 different areas with carnauba.

With every application on both areas, there was no 'noticable' build. The unbuffed areas were cleaned by every reapplication of new wax (it got tough to rub here). After 8 applications of both carnaubas on each area, I applied a single coat of carnauba to a fresh area.

The only slight difference in any of the areas was that the area with 8 buffed coats was a lttle bit shinier. Even looking through a magnifying class, there was really no difference. I even tried scraping each with a credit card. All areas showed an identical amount of very, very fine powder after scraping about a 6" area, that I could only see with the MG.



My personal conclusion:

Even though I cant provide any actual conclusive evidence, Im satisfied from my informal little test that I wasted my time "layering" carnaubas. Im convinced that any sort of nano mil thickness that carnauba may,or may not, gain through layering is absolutely not worth any effort. Any amount of thickness that could be possible after even 8 coats would not make any difference in protection, in the real world, and certainly isnt worth the time and work.

Very unscientific, I know. But it was enough to change my opinion. The time spent repeatedly waxing over wax, is better spent doing something else... or hell, nothing at all.

Applying 2 coats will assure you of better coverage, but thats it. Buffing it over and over will make it shine a little more but probably removes more wax than any gain in shine. If you want that much shine, just get a poly. It lasts longer too.



Hey, its only one opinion. Im sure now I will read some posts on how carnauba layers so well that they now use carnauba instead of surf wax on their stick but at least you know why I no longer "layer" wax.

:)
 
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