Why No Wax After Polish?

B

BigAl96

New member
Been reading this sight thoroughly and getting a great eduction on proper deailing techniques. One thing I've noticed is not many apply wax after polish .... basically finishing the job with UPP or Ex ... just wondering why as I thought wax was the final protectant to the polish work. Or is UPP/EX sufficeint enough. Thanks!
 
UPP and EX are both sealants, with a small ammount of Carnauba to add depth and warmth. You really dont need anything else on top of this, unless you want more depth/gloss/shine and so on.
 
Tassadar said:
UPP and EX are both sealants, with a small ammount of Carnauba to add depth and warmth.
Click to expand...

Tassadar,
Does UPP have Carnauba added? I knew PB EX does have carnauba.

Eric
 
edschwab1,

UPP does not have carnauba in it.

BigAl96,

Carnauba wax is a natural protective coating.
UPP is a synthetic protective coating.
EX is a combination of a synthetic coating and carnauba.

Any one of the three will make a fine "top coat". Most synthetic coatings have the advantage of increased durability.
 
Just wondering from reading through the posts...
How can EX have ANY durability at all? It is a wax sealant. True sealants need a clean surface to bond to. Since the EX has wax in it as do some of the Poorboys polishes, how can it bond to the finish to give the advertised 6-9 months of protection?

If it "really" bonds to the car with wax applied, would it be fair to say it has no bonding issues, or am I missing something that you (Poorboys)can explain aa bit further in-depth on the actual chemistry of the product.

I realize it looks good when first applied, but my main concern is durability and I do not understand the concept of it being able to bond.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the chemical make up that makes it bond when other products will not.
Thanks in advance for the info:)
 
Fr0zen said:
You can always top any sealent with Carnuba to add more pop.
Click to expand...

I am not speaking of "topping" the sealant. My interest is in wax being mixed into a sealant, wax in the prepping polish that is recommended as well as recommendations that it can be used over AIO, UPP, etc.
I am only asking for an explanation of how chemically this is possible to bond to the surface when other sealants can not/do not bond to a "contaminated" surface. I was just wondering what the chemical make up of EX is that would make it bond when so far everything I have ever read states this is not possible.
Please explain(in-depth would be helpfull).
Maybe after reading an explanation I will be convinced, but until then, I am a "doubter" as it seems chemically imposible to bond to wax, glazes, polishes, etc.
 
Oh, My!

Sometimes things just work. I don't question the sunrise. Someway I don't think that you will ever get an understandable answer.
 
LOL!!!
I have the same feeling
BYW, there are explanations in science why the sun works, what it is made of, how old it is, etc.
If we can explain the sun..., I would think a manufacturer could explain the science of his product to a prospective buying audience.
If it works, great!
I just want to know "how", since there is no new technology to support this theory that I know of..., if there is, please inform me(articles, links, etc will be fine), as I am always interested in learning:)
 
Windsor-
The answer you will probably get is that it's proprietary, protected, and thus secret. If he told you, everybody out there would run out and reformulate their products, right?
What I can tell you about this stuff and other modern polymer sealants, is that they contain amino functional resins to enhance bonding and crosslinking. Also, remember that wax does not cover every square milimeter of surface and some area is left exposed for bonding after finishing. Lastly, no carnuba wax is 100% long chain aliphatic esters, thus other components are imbedded that can be bonded to. For example phospholipids and triacylglycerides.

Hope this helps.
 
It's not that hard. Wax is a long-chain polymer, too; it's a natural hydrocarbon polymer. There are thousands and thousands of combinations available for chemical engineers and organic chemists to work with. It's no big deal to have a synthetic polymer that bonds to wax at one place and the car's paint at another. The trick is having that AND durability, gloss, malleability, proper consistency at temperature, etc.; all the other properties we cherish.

I'm not a chemist, but my dad spent 45 years as a chemical engineer working with industrial hydrocarbon resins. THat's a paraphrase of his answer.


Mosca
 
Just to clarify a few points:
I'm not trying to nitpick but I want to point out that waxes are not a polymers, they are simple esters made both artificially and naturally from long chain fatty acids and long chain alcohols. I'm not trying to be an arse Mosca, it's just that many terms get thrown around here too loosely such as polymer, acrylic, sealant, etc. and there is often confusion generated as a result.

Carnuba wax is collected by drying and mashing leaves from the Brazillian carnuba palm. It is NOT pure in the sense that it contains only the wax residue in question. There are various grades and purities of carnuba and the purer it is the more expensive the wax is. The purest wax is usually used as a filler for pharmaceuticals. Lower grades are used for things such as coating cheeses and fruits and cosmetics. One of the reasons it's so cherished is that it can hold oils in which helps give that warm, wet look.

The carnuba in sealants does not last the life of the sealant and needs to be replenished with carnuba containing products on the same schedule you'd wax, i.e. once a month.
 
I used the word "polymer", in my head I was thinking of the long strings of hydrocarbons from chemistry class (30 years ago) and came up with that word. You're right, the terms have much more specific meanings than the colloquial usages that we've grown accustomed to. Apologies; I mean, whatever the word is for a long (organic) hydrocarbon molecule.

I only asked the question of how a wax can be mixed with a sealant yet not interfere with the bonding. Wait a second, I have to make a phone call....

I asked my dad the other part (about how could the wax last as long as the sealant part), and he answered, "Hell, I don't know!"

A nice cynical Q and A:

Q: How can a wax be mixed with a sealant, yet not evaporate and need to be replenished?

A: Marketing!

I dunno, I can believe that it's possible. Heck, you could mix the carnuba in, boil the heck out of it until it's carbon and hydrogen and oxygen, etc, and then make something else completely different out of it I suppose.


Just so you don't think I'm arguing: I have no vested interest in being right. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again, and I appreciate the correction.


Mosca
 
rhillstr said:
The carnuba in sealants does not last the life of the sealant and needs to be replenished with carnuba containing products on the same schedule you'd wax, i.e. once a month.
Click to expand...

So, in other words, EX should be applied once a month, such as Meguiars, 3M, Turtle wax, etc ?

This is making more sense to me now..., Thanks Guys!!!
 
Hey guys-
Were making great progress here and I don't sense any unfriendly dispute or arguements!

The carnuba does not evaporate (BP ~180__°F) much. However, carnuba does has the ability to hold and retain oils. Much of this reacts with oxidants and UV and thus loses it's glow. Mostly when you replenish the carnuba, you're adding fresh carnuba and oils.

The sealant stay put for months after the glow is gone and keeps protecting the finish. Most want the glow and thus replenish the carnuba.
How?
I have seen many mention use of a QD w/carnuba (not all contain carnuba!!)
Some choose to reapply carnuba wax such as P21S or S100 or whatever.
Other do reapply EX every month until clarity is lost then strip it down and start fresh again.

I don't think there really is a wrong answer.

Oh and Mosca, I think the term you seek is aliphatic long chain (saturated of course) :D
 
rhillstr,

I notice that protection remains after the "pop" is gone with waxes as well as sealants.

Pinnacle Souveran Paste has a rap as being not that durable; I believe its protection durability is outstanding. What fades after a few weeks is the "glow". But, dirty water beads to such an extreme that when the water evaporates, it leaves "dirt bubbles", and insects rinse off the front bumper with a hose, even after 5 weeks. I don't know about longer, at that point I can't stand it and I have to re-wax the car.

Anyhow, it's fascinating stuff. The most interesting parts of the world are always where science, engineering, and technology meet craft, talent and artistry.

Tom
 
Carnuba wax, as I mentioned earlier has the ability to hold oils which in part is responsible for it's glow. The oils get oxidized, the wax gets oxidized, and the wax starts to pick up contaminants that all contribute to the glow disappearing. However, the wax is still present and since it's very hydrophobic (doesn't mix with water) water is repelled and beads or sheets off.
A great solution is a quick detailer. It replenishes lost oils in the wax, has some ability to remove imbedded contaminants, and some contain carnuba to help replenish lost carnuba.
 
New in town....

What the heck is EX?

I think there should be a "dictionary" thread started so I can refer to it when you guys speak in "code" lol :D
 
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