Why do clay bars scare people?
- Thread starter BobD
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Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
abbeysdad said:
Percy's postulate was 5 days a week.
It partly depends on the type of clay being used because some clays are a lot more agressive than others, but most consumer grade clays are pretty safe if 'properly' used. Clay can be made more or less aggressive by increasing or decreasing the type of abrasives, the physical size of the abrasives, the concentration of abrasives and the firmness of the resin being used. There's a very nice article about clay on the home page of DavidB's Guide to Detailing which can be quickly accessed by clicking on the "Learn" button at the top of this page.
A comment was made about wet sanding, but using clay is in fact wet sanding in my opinion except that its happening on a much more microscopic level.
Clay uses microscopic abrasives to remove above surface contaminants, however it shouldn't be damaging the paint if it's hydroplaning on a film of fluid! Once the clay hits something above the surface, then it abrades it away or shears it off and the contaminants are embedded into the clay instead of being pushed into the paint. Without proper lubrication, the clay won't hydroplane and you greatly increase the risk of working those contaminants into and or across the paint and that will cause scratching, marring, etc.
Not all clay products are created equal and if you're going to clay often, then choose the appropraite clay for the job.
A comment was made about wet sanding, but using clay is in fact wet sanding in my opinion except that its happening on a much more microscopic level.
Clay uses microscopic abrasives to remove above surface contaminants, however it shouldn't be damaging the paint if it's hydroplaning on a film of fluid! Once the clay hits something above the surface, then it abrades it away or shears it off and the contaminants are embedded into the clay instead of being pushed into the paint. Without proper lubrication, the clay won't hydroplane and you greatly increase the risk of working those contaminants into and or across the paint and that will cause scratching, marring, etc.
Not all clay products are created equal and if you're going to clay often, then choose the appropraite clay for the job.
Danase said:
Except aren't the different grades of clay relative to abrasiveness and these abrasive compounds are shearing contaminants and the clay is grabbing them?
I'm usually very careful to remove all tar before claying, but take a spot of tar on the finish. It requires several passes for the clay to remove it and you can see/feel that it is being removed in layers as though it's being filed away.
Isn't it the 'grit' in detail clay that makes it work ? - otherwise we'd all be using polymer modeling clay for about $10/lb?
Danase said:
So in essence, are you saying that clay does not have any abrasives and it does not do any polishing, but instead pulls out contaminants?
Not all contaminants and or stains are embedded into a surface and in fact some are bonded to the surface. Any pulling / lifting action from the clay cannot possibly lift off all the above surface bonded contaminants and or stains. I still believe there’s definitely sanding and polishing action going on with clay, but on a much more microscopic level and here’s why. But first, let me say that communicating on the internet can be quite hard at times because you can’t see the expression on my face or the tone of my voice, etc and I don’t want any part of my post to come across the wrong way. I'm just trying to have a spirited & friendly exchange and possibly learn from it if nothing else
.Now, if you read the some of the patents regarding detailing clay such as 5,727,993, you'll see there's plenty of talk about abrasives being used, lots of talk about polishing, etc. It also talks about the benefits of using clay on protrusions as opposed to sand paper because sand paper applies 100% of the abrasive force to the surface and remove both the protrusion and the surface where as clay selectively polishes just the protrusion and not the surface (since it should be hydroplaning on a film of fluid over the surface).
If you look up the word "sanding" in the Merriman Dictionary, the definition listed is: "to smooth or dress by grinding or rubbing with an abrasive"
With this mind, I still stand by my statement that clay is basically wet sanding / polishing on a very microscopic level based on what I’ve read in the patent and how the dictionary defines the word “sanding�. Here's a link to just one of several patents on detailing clay and it’s one of the patents referenced in several of the Auto Wax law suits when they started suing everyone for making detailing clay. It’s a great read and really shines the light on detailing clay.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5727993.html
in essence, it is sanding. how else will u get the gunk off if it's not an abrasive? anything that u put on ther, polish, non abrasive polish, is acctually an abrasive. if it wasn't, there would be no friction, adn u woudl NEVER be albe to get it off. there is friction between teh two parts and thus creating that abrasive nature. but we are talking in terms of microscopic scales which really does nothing to the paint.
imported_jaobrien6
New member
BoxsterCharlie said:
I guess I'm pretty stupid, then... 'cause the first time I ever clayed my car, I put lots and lots of nice little scratches in my car.
Sure they polished right out with a PC and mild polish, but I was pretty surprised that it's not as foolproof as everyone made it out to be. In fact it's very easy for a beginner to mess up, because in my opinion, many people are not going to use enough lube the first time unless someone *shows* them how to clay.
However, I agree that it's hard to do major damage with clay, unless you really, really screw up.
I'm one of those people who does a full clay only twice a year (Spring & Fall). I keep up on the washing often enough so that I don't have a problem washing most debris & crap off (along w/a good coat of wax). I will occasionally hit the areas that have extra heavy dirt on them w/a bar.
Juztang
New member
I just had a similar deal this past weekend at a car show. I take my product setup with me to most shows. I was giving a clay demonstration and a guy comes up in front of group of people and says"I can't believe you are trying to sell those, all they do is add scraches to the paint." I tried to explain to him that it is perfectly safe on the paint and how good it works. Then he asked if I will pay for a new paint job if my product scratches his paint. Some people you just can't get through to.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
gopedhead said:
Um...how about chemical cleaners and detergents? If you read the clay patents, there are many mixtures that have detergent in the clay (as well as abrasives; there are 50 or 60 claims in one of the patents).
Accumulator
Well-known member
ErocDaw- Yikes, sorry to hear that happened! Could you explain it a little differently? I understand that it caused a problem that you had to abrade away, but I don't quite follow what happened. I've been using clay since maybe 1991 and never had anything like that happen. Any chance that you pressed too hard or ran out of lube?
the other pc
New member
Therefore the clay is "sanding" only the protrusion and not the surface. So it is not wetsanding with regard to the paint surface.qadsan said:
PC.
the other pc said:
Exactly! :2thumbs: Or at least that's what it ‘should’ be doing if enough of a proper lube is used. If there's not enough lube, then the clay will be working the surface instead of riding on a safe film of fluid.
The same kind of fluid film principle is used in certain types of bearing applications such as flat sleeve type bearings that are commonly used in crankshafts for automobiles, trucks, motorcycles, etc. The crankshaft doesn't actually touch these bearings while it’s spinning (or else there's be catastrophic failure), but instead it rides on a thin film of fluid between the bearings and journals. Flat sleeve type crankshaft bearings usually have a gray colored coating on top of the ultra-soft babbit layer. You can literally wear this coating more in just a couple seconds by wiping it with a paper towel than simply using the engine for many thousands of miles. That’s how important the fluid film is to the life of flat sleeve crankshaft bearings. It’s the fluid film that saves the crankshaft bearings from wearing any quicker just as it saves our paint from being further marred or scratched from the clay.
qadsan said:
Or llike when I'm driving down the road in the rain storm on bald tires happy in the knowledge that my tires are being saved from further wear by the fluid dynamics of hydroplaning - oops, where'd that ditch come from! LOL
Seroiulsy, good comparison - the cushion of lube protects the paint from the abrasion of the clay - but detailing clay must have that layer of lube or marring may occur.
Accumulator said:
Sure. I had water spots from a sprinkler that was on all day in Oregon when the temps were 100+. Windex removed them, vinegar did not. PC-Z did. Clay just kind of smeared them, which made the entire surface look cloudy. All those spots rubbed down into smeary white cloud. What worked was the PC, white pad, and Menzerna Final Polish II on speed 5+. Just needed to get heated up a little and they wipe right off. Pretty cool.
But the clay shocked me. I've gotten accustomed to it taking care of everything. I usually use Zaino, but tried a Mother's brand and got the same result. I used the right lube. It glided across. I didn't press really hard. Just light passes until the surface smoothed out (never did).
So... one case were clay wasn't the best solution. Thank God for the PC!
:spot
Setec Astronomy said:
Sorry, Mike, I have to second that: :think: When I wrote that, it seemed like a really suitable reply at the time (I think) - now when I read it, I totally don't remember what it was supposed to mean. I guess it was due to having been awake for about 36 hours straight when I wrote it :nixweiss