Which products contain excessive silicon?

Alfisti said:
Contrary to popular opinion, silicone will migrate through the paint as paint is microscopically porous, just as chrome is. This is neither bad, nor good; just a reality.
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This is contrary to my (limited) knowledge on the matter. As I understand it, modern catalyzed paints are *not* porous.



If you have any links on the topic, I'd love to see 'em.



Thanks,

Tort
 
I always thought the whole idea behind clear coats was to put a layer of clear over the porous paint in order to essentially seal the paint in. As far as I know S.S. paint would be porous (which is why it oxidizes) and clear coated cars are not (which is why they don't oxidize).



But hey I could be wrong.

~Albert
 
I had a body shop give an estimate for some minor work on a car we just bought. He said he had just one request, that I not use any products with silicone on the paint before he worked on it. Of course, I have no idea what was used on the car before I bought it, but it still got me to thinking what products out there DO have silicone. I fretted over it for a bit, then buffed the car out and slapped on two coats of Pink Wax. I honestly don't know if PW has any or not and I'm willing to bet FK1 would claim there's nothing to worry about, but I'll just give a car a quick polish again with the PC before I take it in and everything should be good. It's probably going to be a couple of months, so I want some good protection in the meantime.
 
I believe that there are differences between silicone wax, silicone oil and silicone polymers. what I know from personal experience is that in the past I've used silicone tire dressing and have experienced sidewall cracking within a couple years time.
 
From what i've read and asked around for all tire dressings have silicones in them the difference lies in whether the dressing is oil based silicone or water based silicone. The oil based silicone is what you want to stay away from when it comes to your tires. Ever tried black magic tire wet gel? Oil based silicone dressing indeed.



This is what i've heard from Sonus atleast.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Wow, that looks like a mess of bad translation and misleading info for the non-technical. I guess if you believe that, then you will never be able to successfully apply Zaino to a vehicle that has ever had any other LSP on it, because they all contain silicone, unless you sand down to the bare metal and repaint. I don't see where "large amounts" of silicone would have anything to do with it, because there is only a molecular layer of anything on the paint when you are done, so even a small amount of silicone in the product would cause the bad result described.



PS Silicon is an element. It can be found in computer chips and sand (silica), but not in car wax. Silicone is a a man-made chemical.
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I fairly sure that the article SilverLexus "found" are statements from Menzerna.

Changeling
 
wannafbody said:
I believe that there are differences between silicone wax, silicone oil and silicone polymers. what I know from personal experience is that in the past I've used silicone tire dressing and have experienced sidewall cracking within a couple years time.
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:eek: which brands did you use? I just put on Turtle Wax Platinum tire dressing on mine (too shiny and makes dust stick to tires) - should have stuck with Poorboys BNB. How does one safely remove tire dressing?
 
ConglomrationAL said:
I always thought the whole idea behind clear coats was to put a layer of clear over the porous paint in order to essentially seal the paint in. ...
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Not exactly. Two-stage coatings are systems that are designed to work together. The clear isn’t put on top to make up for deficiencies in the color coat. They deliberately trade off characteristics to optimize the set.



Modern catalyzed single-stage coatings are just as non-porous and highly crosslinked as their clear cousins.





ConglomrationAL said:
... S.S. paint would be porous (which is why it oxidizes) ...
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That isn’t correct. Older paint systems oxidized more quickly, obviously and severely than modern systems because of their chemical composition, not because they were single stage.





ConglomrationAL said:
... and clear coated cars are not (which is why they don't oxidize)...
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Clear coats can and do oxidize. They just show it differently. They don’t fade because they have no pigment to fade. They do get rough and chalky.





Changeling said:
I fairly sure that the article SilverLexus "found" are statements from Menzerna....
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They appear to be statements from one particular Menzerna importer. You won’t find any such dissertation on Menzerna’s own website.





PC.
 
I personally think this is a fishing trip to get a list of LSP's and polishes that contain silicone, and then the zealots can jump in and say the entire list is inferior to Zaino which claims no silicones.



Actually, what Zaino says is this: "Best of all, Zaino Show Car Polishâ„¢ creates an award-winning finish without the use of abrasives or harmful silicones." Depending on how you read that, it means that silicones are harmful and Zaino doesn't have any, or that Zaino has silicones, just not the harmful ones.



Then they say this "I would definitely recommend you remove the wax buildup on your paint. Just use Liquid Dawn (hand dishwashing liquid) as a car wash. It has a high alkaline content which cuts right thru carnauba wax, paraffin, silicone oils, etc. This will get your paint finish squeeky clean and wax free."



It sounds to me like Sal isn't too worried about it, and the bodyshops seem to be able to paint our cars, so other than the tire sidewalls, this seems like a non-issue.



People (here) have said before that silicone compounds are the basis for virtually all car appearance products. Here's a little link from Dow Corning, who makes the building blocks: Auto Care Products - Waxes, Polishes, Tire Dressings, Protectants and more - Dow Corning. Make sure you take a peek at this brochure http://www.dowcorning.com/content/publishedlit/26-1382-01.pdf where they list what each ingredient contributes to the characteristics of the final product...hmm...it's almost like by using different ingredients and varying the amounts you could formulate almost any kind of car product that we could think of...hmm..then it would all just come down to cost and marketing :rolleyes:



Back to the Menzerna quote, I posted in Rydawg's recent prep thread where he mentioned about some oil residue, we'll see what he has to say about this since he's one of the board's Menz "experts".
 
ConglomrationAL said:
From what i've read and asked around for all tire dressings have silicones in them the difference lies in whether the dressing is oil based silicone or water based silicone. The oil based silicone is what you want to stay away from when it comes to your tires. Ever tried black magic tire wet gel? Oil based silicone dressing indeed.



This is what i've heard from Sonus atleast.
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even that's not completely accurate. I've been dressing boat tires for well over 8 years and the tires still look fine. No checking or cracking of the sidewalls.
 
Jakerooni said:
However tire shine has not been one of them. Either it looks great but dosen;t last long at all or it just dosen't work like it used to at all.
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Try Zaino's tire shine Z16 - it is everything you'd want in a tire dressing except value. it isn't economical but I think Sal will have larger sizes for pros.
 
I personally think this is a fishing trip to get a list of LSP's and polishes that contain silicone, and then the zealots can jump in and say the entire list is inferior to Zaino which claims no silicones.
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Not at all and I don't appreciate the personal attack in this comment. I just want to learn more about potential dangerous products.
 
SilverLexus said:
Not at all and I don't appreciate the personal attack in this comment. I just want to learn more about potential dangerous products.
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Okay, folks, lets not make this a personal thing.



I believe Mike brings up a valid point. The marketing blurb does not said "does not contain silicones"... it says "...does not contain harmful silicones..." People should take this for what it really means; it's marketing!
 
The marketing blurb does not said "does not contain silicones"... it says "...does not contain harmful silicones..."
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David, I think it's also quite possible it does not contain harmful silicones. My question is whether there may be a bad type of silicone in some products.
 
From another poster:



Good Silicone / Not so good Silicone:

Water based dressings, usually a milky-white liquid, (Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS) that doesn’t contain petroleum distillate; silicone oils, waxes, or solvents that can harm rubber and/or vinyl over time. Water-based dressings use a combination of natural oils and polymers to offer a non-greasy, satin finish. Some of these products also contain ultra violet radiation (UVR) blocking agents to help keep tires from cracking, fading and hardening. Most, if not all water-based dressings are biodegradable (i.e. Zaino Z-16 Perfect Tire Glossâ„¢) whereas silicone is not.



Silicone-based dressings, usually a clear greasy liquid, (Dimethal (DMS) that contain petroleum solvents as a cleaning agent, they remove the elasticity from vinyl, rubber and paint; causing them to evaporate out of the substrate, leaving behind a dry inflexible surface. The difference between water and solvent based is in the carrier system used. Solvent based products use a hydrocarbon silicone to suspend the product. When you apply it, the solvent evaporates leaving the dressing's active ingredients (Silicone oil) behind; this type of silicone is also not biodegradable. Most high gloss products are based upon DMS silicone oil.
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So it seems perhaps solvents may be the thing to look for. Perhaps we should ask what products have a high level of solvents?
 
I am not aware of ANY products on the market currently that contain "harmful silicones". The issue that marketers have distorted into the use of the word "harmful" is "paintable". We have 3M to thank for this. 3M drove this issue into the ground when they introduced their "body shop safe" polishes.



So, what people should be asking is "What products are body shop safe?" My $.02 worth on this is "who cares?" A body shop safe product is a product that the refinishing industry can use in their own shop without contaminating the paint booth. Do any of us care about this? Hell no! So why do people bring it up as an issue?



In a word: MARKETING!
 
DavidB said:
A body shop safe product is a product that the refinishing industry can use in their own shop without contaminating the paint booth. Do any of us care about this? Hell no! So why do people bring it up as an issue?



In a word: MARKETING!
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Alot of detailers do sublet work for body shops and it matters to them. If I owned or managed a body shop, I'd make sure to eliminate the threat of contamination from the outside detail shop more than anything.
 
David Fermani said:
Alot of detailers do sublet work for body shops and it matters to them. If I owned or managed a body shop, I'd make sure to eliminate the threat of contamination from the outside detail shop more than anything.
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If the detailer is doing work at the body shop... you bet. Then it is an issue. However, the question is rarely ever put out there in terms of the professional detailer. The question was "What product contain harmful silicones?"



NONE!



If a polish is body shop safe, it should state "Body shop safe" on the label.
 
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