cheers steven, much appreciated.......the only one ive found is the incero bar which retails at £23 and the lub at £% plus p & p comes out at £32, which is a tad pricey. I really dont wont to start the car without claying so im after a bar thats not too expensive? but then im not sure the price of other makers.....oh emailed Zymol.....guess how much £70, yeah right! i'll have a dozen!