What is the Biggest Image Problem

Explicit Details; DaGonz; MikeNap & Others:



Sorry if you feel that I insulted you personally, certainly that was not the intention. In fact, in anything I say there is never anything personal. The comments are only opinions and/or questions about what a person states they do.



To question a person or disagree should never be taken as an insult or personally, it is simply that, a question or a disagreement.



The point of the post and subsequent comments , refers to where I think the detail industry should be going, but it is never going to get there, that is, recognized as a legitimate auto service industry and detailers as legitimate auto service technicians, as long as people can, and are encouraged to enter the business with any level of expertise, equipment and chemicals they can afford.



It seems to me as long as there is a "kid next door" detailing on weekends out of his garage the detail industry and detailers will be seen in that kind of light.



This is the greatest country in the world and what made it great was our capitalistic, free-enteprise system. But what that means is that EVERYONE IN BUSINESS has to obey the laws of the land.



If the kid next door, or a week-end warrior cannot afford to obey the laws of the land or does not want to, they should not be in business.



That is my opinion, of course, and it may offend some of you, but how can anyone say it is OK to disobey the laws of the land because they can't afford it, or "this is a part-time business," or "I don't want to, stupid laws."



That is what anyone who asks if they can get in the business for $150 is going to do, disobey just about every law relating to operating a business.



And, when they operate out of their garage with no insurance, no overhead, no license, no containment system for water, is what they are going to do, disobey laws.



They typically low-ball prices and give the motorist the impression that detailing is something anyone can do, like shining shoes. So why would they pay $200 to $300 for a detail when they can get their car taken care of for less than $100.



If you cannot see how this will hurt you as a legitimate detail business then there is no much more than I can say.



Of course, there are a number of "legitimate detail businesses" that do not have water containment systems; who pay employees by the car, under the table, who have no business license, etc.



Again you make not like what I say but remember there is nothing personal intended. I do not know anyone of you people so there is no way I can say anything personal about you.



Regards

Bud Abraham
 
I agree with Bud. I see it every spring, someone and/or their business is now a detailer, offering their services for a cut rate price and doing a wash and vac and calling it detailing. When I have had a rotary in my hands for 20 years, am well versed in odor removal etc etc.



It brings the industry down.



Now the guys that are "burping" about being weekend warriors, well you are on Autopia leaning new techniques and about products, so you are above what I see. You care to improve and learn the proper ways to do things right.





That is the biggest problem with being a detailer, everyone thinks they are one.
 
Bud,



I see where you are coming from, and can agree with a couple of your points, but to make such a broad generalization about part-timers is unfair and obviously inflammatory. Heck, I'll just throw it out there and say that David F, Autopia's marketing guru and moderator, has never hidden the fact that he works full-time elsewhere and details part-time. And he's one of the most respected detailers in this industry, so to bash all weekend-warriors is mistaken and counterproductive.



But now that you've added a couple of "ifs" into your statements, you've divided up the population a little more. DaGonz, myself, and several other weekenders I know DO go about this as a legit business. Insurance, licensing, all that. I know not everyone does, and I agree that those guys CAN hurt the industry image, but it's not every part-timer out there doing it.



As far as the kid with the wash mitt working with Wal-Mart supplies out of his parent's garage, well that's a bit different. I equate that more to the kids who mow lawns for money. Everyone knows they are lawnmowers, not "landscapers," and expect a certain level of service from him or her. He's not going to get corporate accounts, or wholesale pricing, or plant large trees, or anything like that. He's going to mow your lawn, maybe edge and that's it. You know this and you agree to pay for it because that's all you want. The same goes for 90%+ of the car-owning population. They want their car washed, interior vacuumed and that's it. They won't care if their seat rails are dirty or their door hinges, or if their brake calipers are polished and sealed, etc. People who want and are willing to pay for a REAL detail won't expect to find it from the kid working in his garage, the same as people who want REAL landscaping won't expect it from a kid pushing a lawnmower house to house.



I think the "image" problem with just about any service industry is always going to be the fact that some people feel that particular service is something they could easily do themselves, so why pay a fair price for someone else to do it? This may not always be the case, but they perceive it like that anyway. Why should I pay a ton of money to a detailer when I could do it myself if I had the time? Why do I get raked over the coals at my mechanic's when I could do what he does with the tools in my garage and a Chilton's manual? Why does my housecleaning service expect $50/hour when all they are doing is sweeping and vacuuming?



In the end, any service business will have to work harder than a more white-collar job just to set itself apart, and in a way, to justify its own existence. Those of us working in the service industry have to either come to terms with that or find another job, because I don't see it changing any time soon.
 
Bud,



This is a very great post. I can't believe more haven't responded. I was once that weekend warrior that you described. Except I had insurance. While I feel this post is as honest as it comes. I disagree with weekend warriors being our image problem. I personally know way to many who are very talented and portray a professional image. Hell I created my business looking "not so professional out of my not so professional set up at my house." Dreams come true, even in many fields there are people who live the dream starting from the bottom. Instead of ignoring these people we should try and help them. It kinda falls back on the same principal. Ask what you can do for your country not what your country can do for you. I will always stop and try to help a fellow detailer. I don't care what they have or what they don't have. While its easy to say this and that, it takes more of a man to follow threw. I have had help along the way and look at me! You want to talk business Bud, well lets do it, Im all ears. My detailing business will hit close to a half million dollars this year in gross sales. Please by no means to those reading this am I bragging. I'm saying this because I was once a part time weekend warrior on a shoe string budget. I busted my *** to get here, and I am damn proud of it. I even acted un professional the other week, when I told a customer to get the Fu.. out of my shop. I will say this, It felt great. You can't please everyone. I would think Bud a man of your statue with all the experiance you have would just turn the other cheek at these guys. I've learned to do my thing these days and forgot about the others. I think the biggest problem, in this industry is these forums personally. While they are one of the best things that ever happened to me, I will say this, there also one of the worst as well. People often get caught up in them way to much, they want to be the next highline detailer, or claim to be the best. When in fact they don't know the first thing about it. Once people log on, all of a sudden there pro's. I remember reading about a gentleman who claimed to be this and that, and we all found out later the real truth. He actually came to our country and impossed to be someone else and messed up a gallardo. These are the guys that hurt our image. Its not the weekend warrior who is trying to become something. Its the one claiming to be something there not. Talent prevails, not image. Image may help for some, its not everything. Looks at orange county choppers. These guys did pretty good for being a disfunctional group. Or what about Jesse James and Kat VonD. These two are your everyday bring home to mom and dad couple, but they found success? Bud ask yourself this. Is it image or talent? While I agree with a lot that you have to say, this is not one of them. I think the IDA is a prime example of this. From what I see the intentions of what can be done is great, but the problem is many of these guys think there on pedestal or something. Do i need a certificate to say I know what Im doing? Or do I just let others talk for me? My whole business was built of word of mouth. I have been trusted with some of the nicest cars in the world, is this because of the shirt on my back? Ill answer that for you. No it wasn't. It was because I earned my way up the ladder!!
 
Well said Barry and Mike. I don't see how more guv-ment, more rules, more red tape will ever help any business. Like the kid with the mower example - you hire him to mow, that's it. If you're happy with that level of service, then what's the problem. Have really got to the point that a little girl's lemonaid stand is stut down cause she does not have a license - apparantly so. Ya'll wake up, more guv-mment aint needed and sure ain't helping. The spirit to start, build, and make a name/buiness for yourself should be easier to get instead of harder. The brick and mortar detailing businesses in my town are nothing special, even with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, it comes down to man with polish, and these guys are average if that. Bud, if you're worried about guys working with no license, insurance, etc - don't ever sniff around landscaping, you would friggin die!
 
JuneBug said:
Well said Barry and Mike. I don't see how more guv-ment, more rules, more red tape will ever help any business. Like the kid with the mower example - you hire him to mow, that's it. If you're happy with that level of service, then what's the problem. Have really got to the point that a little girl's lemonaid stand is stut down cause she does not have a license - apparantly so. Ya'll wake up, more guv-mment aint needed and sure ain't helping. The spirit to start, build, and make a name/buiness for yourself should be easier to get instead of harder. The brick and mortar detailing businesses in my town are nothing special, even with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, it comes down to man with polish, and these guys are average if that. Bud, if you're worried about guys working with no license, insurance, etc - don't ever sniff around landscaping, you would friggin die!
Click to expand...



I'll tell you exactly what Bud's problem is -- though he's never going to admit it here:



Detailers who get their start as weekend warriors very typically don't go through a formal training program which they pay for. Bud runs a company which provides formal training programs and sets students up with expensive volume-oriented workflow and somewhat proprietary equipment. If detailers enter the industry by starting small and growing their businesses, they're not paying him to set them up to do the job "his" way, and quite probably never will.



There are many ways to acquire the knowledge needed to properly and successfully do this work, and I don't begrudge anyone the way they choose to do so. When I have a problem is when people do not even bother to find out how they should be doing their jobs properly in any fashion.
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
I'll tell you exactly what Bud's problem is -- though he's never going to admit it here:



Detailers who get their start as weekend warriors very typically don't go through a formal training program which they pay for. Bud runs a company which provides formal training programs and sets students up with expensive volume-oriented workflow and somewhat proprietary equipment. If detailers enter the industry by starting small and growing their businesses, they're not paying him to set them up to do the job "his" way, and quite probably never will.



There are many ways to acquire the knowledge needed to properly and successfully do this work, and I don't begrudge anyone the way they choose to do so. When I have a problem is when people do not even bother to find out how they should be doing their jobs properly in any fashion.
Click to expand...



BINGO!!!

I work in a profession ( firefighting) that has the "wizards" with more certifications in their personnel jackets than Fort Knox has gold bars... yet they make lousy command decisions and some of them wouldn't know what a fire was even if it came up and bit them on the backside.



My first two cars were "college clunkers" and I was more concerned with keeping them running and fueled than in their appearance. I got my first decent car after I graduated and took care of it. I got a Waxmaster polisher as a gift and started using that, after I got out of the fire academy I worked part time at an auto body shop as the shops "gopher"... gopher parts. gopher supplies... gopher coffee, etc.



I learned how to use a rotary polisher there, first by practicing on old panels and then I was allowed to help buff out new paintwork. After leaving the shop, I just did my own vehicles. A friend of my wife's commented how nice my wife's car looked and asked if I could wash and wax her vehicle. My detailing venture started there. I didn't have a "brick and mortar" shop, hell, I had a driveway and shade and did some mobile work for some clients. Eventually I moved into my present home with a basic two car garage that only allowed me to detail in it spring, summer and early fall.



My wife and I converted a garage bay for a new entryway/laundry/craft room for her and added another garage bay for me to make up for it. The garage is fully drywalled, has attic space above, insulated ( it never got below 40 on the sub zero days we had last winter and averages 50 degrees), has great lighting, running H20 and provisions for a gas heater and will allow me to detail even in winter using ONR.



I don't have the "fancy detailing school" certificate. I do take advantage of seminars and workshops given by Meguiars, Finishmaster, CAR products etc. when I can attend them and keep reading here and other websites, such as Autogeek, Detailed Image, etc. to improve my abilities.



I don't need a "framed paper certificate"on my garage wall telling me I know how to detail. My vehicles and those of my clientele are my "certificates"... as a matter of fact, I have won a top choice award in my vehicle class for my Mustang at the last three Mustang Club of New England judged shows, where it is all "about the details".



I would be curious to see how many of the Pros like Todd Cooperrider, Todd Helme, Dave Fermani, Mark Harris, Jacob Bunyan, Scottwax, Charlie Hahn and others attened "detailing school"...
 
Let's talk customers. You have the ones that want a place like Barry T has and care about maintaining their cars, or they call someone like Scott to come to them and do the detail at their house/office. Next are the price shoppers that go down the phone book calling all listing looking for the "deal". And you have the ones that think the local autospa is the shizz and that's where they go. My customers are freinds, co-workers, friends of friends and now - people that have heard about me and drop a name of someone I know. Ya'll see there are all types and plenty to go around. I don't compete with Barry or Scott, my customers would never pay what those guys get for a detail. They have to charge to cover expenses and people understand that. Me - folks know they're paying for my time, my skill and my passion to do the little extras. I would say my work is good - well above the "industry" average. I, unlike Barry and others, do not have the desire to do this full time. I have a nice day job with steady income, great benefits and 28 years of service - not about to jump ship - especially in this anti-business enviroment. I do have some health issues that would cause problems if I were to do this full time too.



Does anybody think that I and all the other part time guys are bad for the business (besides Bud) - really? you are threatened by me? Does the 2-3 cars I do a month mean that much to you?



Industry standards and all that regulation jazz. I read an article about a state where ...it was either barbers or undertakers, but anyway, the old guard got together and formed an association. Then, they got the local politicians in their corner and drafted these rules/requirements tailor made for them. Why? To make it so hard to start a business near them that they would have the whole market to themselves. I say keep it as free as you can, yeah buy a business license - should be about 25 bucks, pay tax and let your rep determine if you succeed. Oh, I was trying to think if there was one service industry that had a way to determine other than reviews or word of mouth endorsements that you could just "trust" without worry, nope, can't think of a single one. Ah, what about a doctor? So he/she has the sheepskins on the wall, 5% are quacks (conservative estiment) oh, oh - hotels! 5 Star, Triple A, blah blah - ever read Trip Advisor? Why is Angie's List popular? Ok, rant done, going to watch the new Top Gear.
 
Lots of good thoughts on this.



I am a former TID member and have slowly been trying out other forums. I am a little more than a weekend warrior but do not make my primary income from detailing.



I feel if you are a quality detailer then those working on a shoestring budget doing a wash and wax are not your competition. Just like the Waldorf does not consider Motel 6 it's competition. The potential customer base is completely different and does not co-mingle.



More than likely almost everyone here began by doing a few small jobs for friends and family before deciding it is really what we want to do and get the training and go legit.
 
There is a lot of truth in the above ‘protection of the old guard’



My (ex) profession (Engineering) requires a degree and an examination after graduation (Engineer in training (EIT) you tend work under a professional Engineer mentor for five years. After which you have to sit and pass a professional Engineers examination, upon passing you apply to the state in which you work for a professional Engineers (PE) licence, each year you have to attend certain courses to obtain educational credits, without which your license will not be renewed.



Early in my career I had trainees that wanted to pursue a ‘hands-on’ career in the oil industry they had obtained a degree but didn’t want to become PE’s, I also mentored EIT and my experience was that there was no difference between the two, however later on the guys who had learned by doing were far more useful to a team in the field than those will all the ‘paper’ licences etc. Strangely enough after 10-15 years (I don’t remember which) they could be ‘grandfathered #’ in and be granted PE licence.



The point of this long dissertation is that I’m convinced these requirements are as much protectionism by the old guard as real requirements, although I am in no way saying that training ( be it formal or learn by doing) and acquiring knowledge are not necessary in any trade or profession
 
For an icon (a degree, certificate, trophy, or title) to have merit or hold prestige with people that are not from within an industry or field, the icon must be known to represent a person's commitment to something that is difficult to achieve. Very special icons show that the commitment paid dividends in the form of knowledge, achievement, or performance above and beyond the rest of the pack in that field.



As an example, a boxing "champion" may be looked upon as a true champion if the title he holds was earned in a title bout, sanctioned by a respected sanctioning body. For the general population to truly appreciate how difficult it is to hold such a title, it really helps if that population can understand the difficulty level by seeing the match, or by having some experience in the ring themselves. Most people have been in some sort of physical altercation, so seeing one guy beat the snot out of another is proof in itself that at the very least, both of the competitors can handle pain, and are rugged individuals.



If someone is the champion of a spelling bee, then we might wonder whether the other competitors were at a first grade or high school level. Hopefully, the icon would list this information and be properly spelled. For some people, spelling may have been difficult to mister (er, master). For those folks, the icon might be impressive, whereas the "spelling is easy" crowd may have little appreciation for it.



We all seem to understand the level of difficulty in becoming a competitor in the Olympics, yet we don't necessarily even need to know what the sport is. This is because it is an accepted fact that the Olympics require an uncanny level of commitment and performance.



But what about car cleaning? Unless a person has ever damaged their car while cleaning it, or hired someone else to clean their car and that person damaged it, they won't really understand what the big deal is. They might even think, "Are you kidding? A certification showing this guy knows how to wash and wax a car, which is something that everyone else does every day?"



Even if the guy cleaning his car decides he would rather not clean the car himself, it's not likely that an icon will sway his decision as to which detail service he is going to use.



Until a person is forced by law or decree to earn an icon in order to do a specific job, and enough people attempt to pass that test or class (thus allowing enough people to understand the difficulty in earning the icon), then it's likely that the general population will not truly appreciate specialized trainings in any industry, let alone car washing and waxing. Of course, jobs that save lives garner a unique level of appreciation.



Inside a particular industry, however, an icon could be a big deal. If a shop owner was looking to hire an employee, and two guys show up for the job, the chap touting the earned icon may make have an edge. If both guys end up being equal in all other aspects (performance, attitude, resume, etc.), then the guy with the icon would inevitably have an advantage.



Again, within the industry, the icon might help a shop owner build a stellar crew, chock full of educated and well informed employees. If the shop can turn out above average work, and develop a good reputation among its customers, then its likely that the customers will spread the word by recommending the place to their friends and contacts.



Sell the educational aspect, not the icon.



All the icon relays to the general population is that "Guy X" wants you to know that he probably attended "This Class" on "This Day".
 
Reminds me of Ron White's bit about the guy that attented wheel school for Sears Automotive and left the lug nuts loose on his van. One of the back wheels came off in the parking lot while he was driving away. Looks like a diploma from lug nut U didn't help that guy, maybe he missed that class?
 
I say detailing is a thorough cleaning of a vehicle- PAINT CORRECTION is the use of machines (Rotary / D.A. /R.O ) to correct PAINT IMPERFECTIONS,

ALSO SEE THIS VIDEO i FOUND ON YOUTUBE. i THINK SOMEONE LIKE BUFFER BARRY SHOULD DO A TUTORIAL VIDEO SIMILAR TO EXPLAIN DETAILING (Cleaning) and PAINT CORRECTION (Machine Buffing)

This video seems a little misleading & outdated (IMO) The Difference between a Car detail & a Car Wash - auto detailing tips - YouTube
 
When does someone who does detailing for money have to make the transition from a role where they do not pay taxes, get license, insurance to paying taxes on earnings?
 
Bunky said:
When does someone who does detailing for money have to make the transition from a role where they do not pay taxes, get license, insurance to paying taxes on earnings?
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The government allows people to do stuff like detailing as hobby income, once you have passed a certain threshold you are required to escalate to a business tax wise.
 
HERE YOU GO................





1.Look sharp

2.Be on time

3.Do work that is considered as "Tightness"

4.Do not gouge customers

4.Do not work for "The cheapness" either

5.Tell the truth(But no one is 100% truthful.........no one)

6.When you are tired and want to quit on a hard job...........you do not but "Cowboy the F up" and give your best on every job

7.Strive to become a businessman and a "Craftsman" who is known for having "Hand skills" in the computer age of sit on your a** and click



Simple credo's that probably will not always bring financial riches as a whole but respect and satisfaction of being a "Producer" and not a "taker" and being thought of by your clientale as someone who can "Get it done right" as opposed to "Right now".



 
Auto Concierge said:
HERE YOU GO................





1.Look sharp

2.Be on time

3.Do work that is considered as "Tightness"

4.Do not gouge customers

4.Do not work for "The cheapness" either

5.Tell the truth(But no one is 100% truthful.........no one)

6.When you are tired and want to quit on a hard job...........you do not but "Cowboy the F up" and give your best on every job

7.Strive to become a businessman and a "Craftsman" who is known for having "Hand skills" in the computer age of sit on your a** and click



Simple credo's that probably will not always bring financial riches as a whole but respect and satisfaction of being a "Producer" and not a "taker" and being thought of by your clientale as someone who can "Get it done right" as opposed to "Right now".
Click to expand...



Very nice.. Bob. I hope you don't mind, but I am going to use a version of that for a firefighting blog entry.
 
Image is everything. One thing I have noticed is that those who post their work here are pretty squared away as far as shop cleanliness goes. Everything is organized, the floors are clean, the shop is well lit and your personnel (if you have employees) don't look like Joe Dirt. Mobile detailers, such as Scottwax also have their act together.. Scott has posted pictures of his detailing equipment in his vehicle, those with vans and trailers have also posted their setups... their "workplace" exudes tightness.



I saw a courtesy van owned by one of our new local "professional detailing shops" on the road the other day. It was filthy and full of holograms (nice way to advertise your business.. not!).



I've driven by their workplace. It is a shop that could be called a $#ithole. It is based in an old service station, the lighting is just about non existant and their poorly trained employees use nothing but rotary polishers and wool pads.. and not a single microfiber in sight. They wash cars with a brush that gets used on the wheels, wheelwells and paintwork and dry them with old towels that appear dirty. if they are dropped, they just picke it up and continue as if nothing happened.



My prediction is they won't be in business very long.
 
Interresting discussion Bud. I detail full time right now. I am licensed, pay taxes, follow the laws of the land but I also work out of my home garage. I am soon going to be working elsewhere full time and running my detail business on the side. I have no problem with the "Weekend Warriors" or people who do it on the side. If you are on any forum I can bet you are putting out better work than most with a shop. Heck dealerships have very large detail centers, some look really nice, and they have all the right equipment but the majority of them hack up a car burning trim or instilling hollograms like crazy. The cars that come out of my home garage look better and will still look better 3 months down the road when all of the fillers and masking products are gone.



I have been asked to help teach dealership detailers to use some new products. One of the things I have been able to do is observe and listen to their practices... let me tell you it is shocking. Trunk carpeting doesnt get vacuumed out just spray painted over all of the dirt. When I was there one day a self appointed "Rotary Master" pulled out his Dewalt and burnt one giant strip on a bumper. He claimed that is the first piece of trim he has ever burnt. Now I am in the process of teaching them how to use a DA.



On insurance, I dont carry insurance because I have enough money saved up and set aside to cover my rear end if there is a mishap. I dont see why insurance is a must if you are not driving the car. I wont ever drive the vehicle other than to move it in and out of the garage. I also take extra precautions to prevent any mishap but if by random chance something does happen I have plenty saved up to cover the damages.



Insurance would be Im just guessing $300/month? More or less I dont know. But I would like to know from those that have insurance... How many times has the insurance come in handy? How much do you pay? I am guessing if you know what you are doing and take your time insurance would end up costing a heck of a lot more in the long run.



All in all, The Weekend Warrior is not what is wrong with this industry. It is the quality of work put out by some in this industry. I would rather let a weekend warrior work on my car than a dealership detailer giving me the "buff job special" any day of the week. The other thing wrong witht this industry is the knowledge of the public. The majority of the public has no idea how to properly detail a vehicle, they have no idea what they are looking at other than "my interior was dirty and now it is clean" or "My paint was dirty and now it is shiny". The more we educate the public then better our industry will become but I dont ever see a day where everyone cares about how to properly detail a vehicle. There will always be those looking for the lowest price "buff job special".
 
smoknfastlegend said:
The government allows people to do stuff like detailing as hobby income, once you have passed a certain threshold you are required to escalate to a business tax wise.
Click to expand...



What is the criteria?
 
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