Wax for Canadian Winters?

User Name said:
Okay, I have plenty of SG but NO KAIO, so I'm going to try it out (6 layers), although if I'm being totally honest, I don't believe ANY of the layering stuff. To me, it's nothing more than detailing mythology...

As always, I'm always open to the possiblity though. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.



You'll see :D



The KSG isn't like a wax (where opinions/experiences seem to vary with regard to layering), KSG will actually build up on the surface in a clearly discernable manner. The more you apply (the general rule-of-thumb is to wait ~24 hours between layers) the more noticable the platic-coating effect will be. Eventually it's almost like the vehicle is saran-wrapped.



I arrived at that magic number of "6" through reasonably controlled experimentation. I sure wouldn't ever bother with fewer than four layers (and four's not enough to get through a winter IME); I'd simply use another LSP instead.



Note that trying to polish through many layers of KSG can lead to problems, it's one of the few cases where "oh, just polish through your LSP, don't bother to strip it" can be bad advice (gee, guess how I learned *that* :o ).



I'll be looking forward to hearing how this works out for you. If our experiences differ significantly *this* time, I'll be utterly astounded.
 
I've never really bought into layering either; but I have noticed some products do seem to benefit from it. I haven't done any "real" testing, so who knows; I do noticed Opti-Seal tends to last quite a bit longer if you layer it a few times. I've never put more than two "coats" of a wax on a car though (and watched the durability closely, that is).



User_Name - it's definitely possible parking the van outside is what's doing it. Obviously this would be a negative for the durability of 476s. Generally speaking I use 476s on almost all my clients cars pre-winter and I haven't seen it stripped in less than ~16 weeks yet, but again, most of their cars are garaged.
 
Like I said, I'm always open to the realm of possibility but I'm more of a "must see myself" kind of guy.



Up until now, I kind of adhere to Mike's philosophy at MOL:



Are multiple coats of wax beneficial? (Layering)



That depends on what effect you are looking for: protection or beauty.



Protection



If your looking for the maximum protection possible, then one or two thin coats of wax, maybe even up to three thin coats of wax, has the potential to create the most surface protection depending on the wax, the surface itself and whether or not sufficient time has passed in-between each application. Of course the law of diminishing returns states that you will not create exponentially greater layers of protection with each application, but Meguiar's knows that a second, and sometimes third application will insure uniform, thorough coverage over the majority of the surface, thus maximizing the protection.



Environmental conditions today demand more frequent washing and waxing in order to prevent costly damage to the outer layers of paint. Just as important as a second, and possibly a third coating of wax is to provide the maximum amount of protection in any one detailing session, (especially on the horizontal surfaces), it is also vitally important that you wax more often to maintain your finish. This is especially true if your car is a daily driver exposed to the elements and parked outdoors most of the time.



Beauty



Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application?



In a word: Possibly



Generally speaking, when trying to take your car's finish to its maximum potential for clarity, gloss, shine and depth of color, there comes a point, or a plateau, that you will reach whereupon additional applications of either polish or wax will not increase the results of any of those categories. Of course, you are more apt to reach this plateau if your skill level is high and if the quality of your products is also very high.



These assumptions also assume that the surface in question is on

* A brand new car

* A car with a brand new paint job

* An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition

* An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent condition

If any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.



After time goes by and this plateau you have previously reached begins to diminish, you can restore the paint to it's maximum potential again, quickly and easily by simply applying a new coat of the right wax or polish. This maintenance procedure will only act to restore the finish back to it's maximum potential and shouldn't be positioned, or confused with making your surface deeper, darker, shinier, etc. than it's maximum potential.



Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.



Special Note: Ideas suggesting that repeated applications of a product will continue to increase optic clarity and gloss and protection are misleading you and your own common sense should enable you to understand that a finish, whether black, red, single-stage, clear coat, etc. has a limit to how perfect it can become. 100% of 100 is 100
 
User Name- Had a thought: maybe you'd be interested in trying some layering experiments of your own. IMO, other than the obvious aspects of limiting variables (prep/subsequent treatment/etc.), the trick is to equalize the starting time for the observation period. Example:



Apply KSG to an entire panel. Then continue to apply it in 24 hour intervals to *one section* of that panel. After you've done this for a few days, apply one more time to the entire panel and consider that the start of the observation period. That oughta effect the equal starting times; at that point one section will have two applications and the other section will have many more. Then just keep an eye on the panel and see what happens (or *doesn't* happen, as the case may be). Not perfect, but it's how I do stuff like this.



EDIT: hope the above didn't give offense, I can understand if it's so intuitively obvious as to be insulting.
 
Accumulator said:
User Name- Had a thought: maybe you'd be interested in trying some layering experiments of your own. IMO, other than the obvious aspects of limiting variables (prep/subsequent treatment/etc.), the trick is to equalize the starting time for the observation period. Example:



Apply KSG to an entire panel. Then continue to apply it in 24 hour intervals to *one section* of that panel. After you've done this for a few days, apply one more time to the entire panel and consider that the start of the observation period. That oughta effect the equal starting times; at that point one section will have two applications and the other section will have many more. Then just keep an eye on the panel and see what happens (or *doesn't* happen, as the case may be). Not perfect, but it's how I do stuff like this.



EDIT: hope the above didn't give offense, I can understand if it's so intuitively obvious as to be insulting.



Dude, no insult at all. I'm like the village idiot for detailing. Open to anything, but in serious need of hand holding.



It wasn't LONG ago that I thought 12 hour cure time meant "keep the wax on for 12 hours". Which I did!!! LOL



You can be assured that on that day, my wax definitely passed the swipe test!
 
How about removal? Last time I used SG, it was very difficult to removed. An autopia member and pro lechillo told me to remove it with a bit of QD on my MF. Others said a bit of water.



I just found it was VERY difficult to get off. Should I just WOWO?
 
User Name said:
How about removal? Last time I used SG, it was very difficult to removed. An autopia member and pro lechillo told me to remove it with a bit of QD on my MF. Others said a bit of water.



I just found it was VERY difficult to get off. Should I just WOWO?



I doubt the durability would be as good with WOWO, but I could be wrong. KSG can be tough to remove, the trick of course is to apply super thin. Like painfully thin; no high spots at all (the spots that turn a chalky white). Whenever I am using KSG or Werkstatt AJ I apply thinly to the car then go over it again with the applicator and wipe off high spots. Then I let it sit until dry and remove. It normally takes awhile, 30+ min ime. I remove most sealants with a qd.
 
dropscience- Yeah, I'm guilty as charged :o It's just sooo easy to refer to the products/techniques that way (well, once you have 'em all memorized) and I gotta admit I make this posting business as easy on myself as possible. To save you a trip the the Magic Decoder Ring (or whatever it's called), here are a few translations: KAIO = Klasse All-In-One; KSG = Klasse Sealant Glaze; QD = Quick Detailer (generic term); MF = MicroFiber cloth; W-O-W-O = Wipe On/Wipe Off (application method).



Picus said:
I doubt the durability would be as good with WOWO, but I could be wrong. KSG can be tough to remove, the trick of course is to apply super thin..



I seem to get slightly less durability with KSG using W-O-W-O but I've never done any proper testing. After discussing W-O-W-O with Mike Phillips I now only use it when applying to textured plastic trim and other surfaces "you shouldn't LSP" (scare-quotes intentional).



User Name- Glad I wasn't offensive, just never know how stuff comes across over the internet. I've had people make assumptions about me that seemed pretty insulting and I don't want to be guilty of the same thing.



When Picus says "super thin" he means it! I apply so thin I can't really see it on silver. E.g., it takes less than one ounce to do the minivan.



When buffing off, I fog the surface with my breath before buffing. Makes the removal go a little easier and also makes it easier to see where that invisibly-thin layer of KSG is.



Also, regarding your "12 hr cure time", that actually works well for me with KSG. I'll often apply it one day and wait until the next morning to buff it off, seems to make things a little easier. I once left it on for three days just to see what'd happen (it came off easily).



I bet that applying over KAIO makes the first coat buff off easier too. Subsequent ones are just KSG-on-KSG and seem easily enough if the applications are thin enough.
 
My favourite choices of sealant and/or wax would be:



1. Zaino Z2 Pro or Z5 Pro

2. Klasse Twins topped with M16

3. M20 Polymer Sealant topped with M16.



Tim
 
User Name said:
What are you using as your wash? I'm in Toronto as well and I'm not getting anywhere near the durability your getting out of 476s. I'm lucky to get 10 weeks but if I said 8, I probably wouldn't be lying either.

Don't mean this as a challenge, but, your alias info says Zambia.



Is there a Toronto in Zambia? :think: Didn't know it snowed in Zambia! :D
 
Alfisti said:
Don't mean this as a challenge, but, your alias info says Zambia.



Is there a Toronto in Zambia? :think: Didn't know it snowed in Zambia! :D



I spend my winters in Zambia, but the car remains in Toronto. I fly in for weekends though. :bolt
 
Several coats of Klasse sg topped with a couple coats Collinite #885, last done in October, and when we have rain, it still beads like crazy and runs right off.
 
Back
Top