(^&%*(%$ Water Spots!

Junebug

Junebug

JAFO
OK, I detailed another 3/4 ton, 4 door, 4X4, truck -and black too, lets make it easy. It was a 06 Dodge with the Cummins, cool truck and very well taken care of inside. But, after the wash and clay, I was faced with about an acre of black paint with the waterspots from hell. I thought, hey, M101 with MF should do, I tried various combo's with M101-105-D300 and MF and orange foam. M101 with orange foam "worked" if you did at least 2 full steps, maybe 3. Hey, I'm not that young anymore and with temps in the 90's, I needed help. So, I brought out the 3D Eraser waterspot remover, I remember somebody saying it really worked. No kidding, oh heck yeah it did. I found that if you applied it thick, and worked it in with a MF towel for 2-3 minutes, then let it sit up while you unbent your old fingers and got some gatoraid, it worked great. I never let it dry on the paint, and I washed it off with soap and then rinsed, dried and what do you know, 1 step with M101 on orange and it was LSP ready! Dust? You bet, but, it wasn't slowing me down, I went over it with the Duragloss no rinse stuff and dried it, then hit it with a nice layer of BFWD, worked it in good with a LC red pad, the paint seemed to suck it up. Anyway, wipe off was easy and the customer said and I quote - this didn't look this good the day I bought it, and he gave me a nice tip!



So boys and girls, if you don't have 3D Eraser, I hope you NEVER have a job with waterspots. Me? I'm ordering more and asking Ben to make this in the quart size too.



One thing that keeps bothering me though (in my best Lt. Columbo) is - could Eraser be used with MF pads on a PC? As long as you kept the speed around 2-3? and kept the surface wet, why or why not?
 
Hrm... Eraser with a mf pad. Interesting idea. Would be afraid the Eraser would eat up the pad. Also would be timid of using the pad for anything else after.



Why not try it and let us know the results? :D





Anyhow, Eraser is chemically removing the water spot. It does not have any real abrasive abilities that I know of. It would be as abrasive as polishing with water.
 
Oh Thomas, I have never had time to do a picture essay for any product or technique. I frankly couldn't care less if I ever did. Call me in 12 years when I hit 66 and retire from my day job. That said, re-read my tag line ....ok



Ben, I was using a pretty thick MF towel to scrub the paint with Eraser. I found that using more of the product and taking longer to work it in worked better. I thought about the MF pad with my PC as being the next level, to add some more mechanical action to it. I honestly will try it next time, but not looking forward to another detail like this one. And I tend to go through MF pads so using one as an experiment wouldn't matter.

You know, I thought "someone" would call me out on finishing down with M101, hey, it ain't that hard.



Ok, take it for what it's worth. But, for the money, you really owe it to add Eraser to your stash of products.
 
I just spent 60 man hours removing water spots. Had help, that is why "man hours".



JuneBug said:
Oh Thomas, I have never had time to do a picture essay for any product or technique. I frankly couldn't care less if I ever did. Call me in 12 years when I hit 66 and retire from my day job. That said, re-read my tag line ....ok



Ben, I was using a pretty thick MF towel to scrub the paint with Eraser. I found that using more of the product and taking longer to work it in worked better. I thought about the MF pad with my PC as being the next level, to add some more mechanical action to it. I honestly will try it next time, but not looking forward to another detail like this one. And I tend to go through MF pads so using one as an experiment wouldn't matter.

You know, I thought "someone" would call me out on finishing down with M101, hey, it ain't that hard.



Ok, take it for what it's worth. But, for the money, you really owe it to add Eraser to your stash of products.
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Most water spot removers are acidic...did you have to use caution (gloves, eye protection) when using Eraser?
 
Gloves? I don't need no stinkin gloves!

Yeah, probably should have used them, but I was carefull not to touch the stuff and if I did - I had a bucket of wash water to rinse my hands in.



60 hours Thomas? What did you detail? A train? Or maybe that left coast water is just that bad, sheesh, I'd said F that and grabbed the 1500 grit and went to town on it. How many times did you have to use Eraser per panal?
 
Thomas Dekany said:




Didn't use eraser - went old school, and polishied.
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That's some pretty etched water spots. What compound did you use? Like JuneBug, wet sanding may have been a better option.
 
After trying 2-3 long buffing steps using M101 on MF and foam pads, I said, ok, let's see what Eraser can do. I decided this after doing the tailgate and passenger side of the truck bed. It removed almost all waterspots and allowed me to do 1 pass and be done. The owner bought the truck new in 2006 and said it never looked as good as it does now.

Anyway, I have his wife's truck coming in this weekend, thankfully it's a Tacoma.
 
As above, 3D Eraser is quite acidic (phosphoric acid). To be honest, I am confused that this would be popular when the use of much milder acids is frowned upon for fallout removal.



Machine use - I don't really see the point. It is a chemical cleaner and won't intentionally remove anything with abrasion. More than that, it may not give adequate lubrication (so you might marr the paint), the machine action will also evaporate the water away more rapidly so you end up with an ever increasing level of acidity, you risk flinging the product at yourself and also elsewhere on the vehicle (ammonium bifluoride will etch glass, so you need to be careful not to get it on there). All in all, I would recommend against it.
 
Well, I'm not sure why you think Eraser is so strong? I have some "other" brands for water spots that I definitely get the gloves on for. Also, it says on the bottle - use on paint/glass. As far as using on a MF pad via a PC, didn't try it and if I were to - I'd use low speed. The stuff is like thick syrup and wouldn't sling unless you A. used a rotary, B. speed 6 on a PC or C. just plain careless. The directions say wash off after a minute; not wearing a watch, I did the old thousand 1, thousand 2 etc and that got old so I just left it alone and washed when it started to look like it was changing a bit. It's hard to explain, but after trying a few panels, you get a feel for it. I noticed when I washed it off the towel had a whitish goo like substance on it. I'm no chemist but I'd wager that was the result of the chemical reaction of Eraser and the minerals in the water spots.



But, I'm not trying to say that this is the best or the only way, I just did a detail, used a product with great results and felt it worthy to share so that ya'll could read it and make your own choices, form your own opinions or hell, just try it and see for yourself.



BTW - I don't own stock in 3D nor do I get any pay whether $ or other from them for promoting any of there products and/or this forum. I state this cause there are always the tin-foil hatted conspiracy theorist out there that would claim I'm just shilling.
 
Excellent review of the Eraser JuneBug. I've been quite happy with it too. Works wonders on showers also. :thumb:



PiPUK said:
As above, 3D Eraser is quite acidic (phosphoric acid). To be honest, I am confused that this would be popular when the use of much milder acids is frowned upon for fallout removal.



Machine use - I don't really see the point. It is a chemical cleaner and won't intentionally remove anything with abrasion. More than that, it may not give adequate lubrication (so you might marr the paint), the machine action will also evaporate the water away more rapidly so you end up with an ever increasing level of acidity, you risk flinging the product at yourself and also elsewhere on the vehicle (ammonium bifluoride will etch glass, so you need to be careful not to get it on there). All in all, I would recommend against it.
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As I'm sure you know, there are levels of acidity that are more dangerous than one another! Certainly Phosphoric acid is not one of the most dangerous. For example Hydrofluoric acid is very dangerous and used in many of today's detailing chemicals. But phosphoric is used in many areas without any real harm to the user or the automobile. It is widely used as a chemical reagent. Also commonly used as a rust inhibitor, food additive, dental and orthopedic etchant, electrolyte, flux, dispersing agent, industrial etchant, fertilizer feedstock, and component of home cleaning products. There are acids like Glycolic acid which is used even on ladies faces as a chemical peal. So; discriminating acids just like that is not accurate.



There is citric acid in lemon that we can drink....



It is not fair to pick one or two ingredients from MSDS sheet and make a general assumption. One has to consider the %'s used and the combination of other Chemicals ....buffering agents and surfactants. In MSDS companies are only obliged to declare the hazardous chemicals and a rough range of percentages. But there are other goodies to make a product work well. For example we use buffers to mellow out the acids. These are not listed. Because it is 3D's trade secret. Every Tom, **** and Harry knows acid eliminates water spots. Well then just buy the acid and pour over the car....it is not that easy.



There are harmful chemicals in drugs we are prescribed by Doctors. But the amount is important. Ammonium bifloride content that is in 3D's Eraser formula is less than 3%. You have to look at the whole formula before making a judgement. There is even chlorine in drinking water. Or muriatic acid in the swimming pools that our children swim in. I can go on and on... In think you got the point.



It is easy to stereotype a product by looking in to an MSDS sheet. If one gets scared by reading an MSDS .... I highly recommend that person not to even glance at his or hers prescription drug's ingredients and warnings....We are not selling baby food. It is car care after all. :)
 
[Machine use - I don't really see the point. It is a chemical cleaner and won't intentionally remove anything with abrasion. More than that, it may not give adequate lubrication (so you might marr the paint), the machine action will also evaporate the water away more rapidly so you end up with an ever increasing level of acidity, you risk flinging the product at yourself and also elsewhere on the vehicle (ammonium bifluoride will etch glass, so you need to be careful not to get it on there). All in all, I would recommend against it] PIPUK



Unless you use a high speed it is very doubtful you’ll produce enough kinetic energy (friction heat) to evaporate water, the same comment would apply to ‘sling’. All you are doing is applying a product not polishing a surface, so pressure is unnecessary, therefore any surface marring would be minimal or non-existent.
 
Ron White is one funny guy, and I recall his bit about being on his honeymoon on a Greek Isle, hot, tired, sweating scotch from every pore, and there was this guy selling donkey rides to the top of this mountain. He had (quote Ron) the worst ad line in history - you can take the donkey or you can take the tram, it is the same price. OK, 2 hours riding a donkey up switch backs to the top, or 30 seconds in a tram.

So, you can do the old school polish, or you can use Eraser....

All I know is that I did a 2006, black, Dodge 2500, quad cab, 4x4 - the whole damn detail in a little under 13 hours. OK, the interior was in good shape.
 
David Fermani said:
As I'm sure you know, there are levels of acidity that are more dangerous than one another! Certainly Phosphoric acid is not one of the most dangerous. For example Hydrofluoric acid is very dangerous and used in many of today's detailing chemicals. But phosphoric is used in many areas without any real harm to the user or the automobile. It is widely used as a chemical reagent. Also commonly used as a rust inhibitor, food additive, dental and orthopedic etchant, electrolyte, flux, dispersing agent, industrial etchant, fertilizer feedstock, and component of home cleaning products. There are acids like Glycolic acid which is used even on ladies faces as a chemical peal. So; discriminating acids just like that is not accurate.



There is citric acid in lemon that we can drink....



It is not fair to pick one or two ingredients from MSDS sheet and make a general assumption. One has to consider the %'s used and the combination of other Chemicals ....buffering agents and surfactants. In MSDS companies are only obliged to declare the hazardous chemicals and a rough range of percentages. But there are other goodies to make a product work well. For example we use buffers to mellow out the acids. These are not listed. Because it is 3D's trade secret. Every Tom, **** and Harry knows acid eliminates water spots. Well then just buy the acid and pour over the car....it is not that easy.



There are harmful chemicals in drugs we are prescribed by Doctors. But the amount is important. Ammonium bifloride content that is in 3D's Eraser formula is less than 3%. You have to look at the whole formula before making a judgement. There is even chlorine in drinking water. Or muriatic acid in the swimming pools that our children swim in. I can go on and on... In think you got the point.



It is easy to stereotype a product by looking in to an MSDS sheet. If one gets scared by reading an MSDS .... I highly recommend that person not to even glance at his or hers prescription drug's ingredients and warnings....We are not selling baby food. It is car care after all. :)
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I know all of this. I would also point out that I was making comparison, and I quote:



PiPUK said:
....the use of much milder acids is frowned upon for fallout removal.
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At no point did I actually state that the product was specifically dangerous. I do note that no one has actually answered this point...



The significance is that fallout removal systems often sell themselves compared to the 'standard' mild rust remover, which is oxalic acid. In fact, the message given by many is that oxalic acid causes harm to paint. As evidence, see the following quote which comes from Finish Kare:



Note: Some decontamination procedures include the use of products containing Oxalic Acid. This acid softens the paint, exterior trim, and aluminum. Damage may not be evident for months. The Finish Kare Paint Decontamination System does not contain Oxalic Acid.
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In practice, phosphoric acid tends to be more aggressive than oxalic. So here we come back to my statement - detailers are buying into the desire to use something less aggressive than oxalic acid for fallout removal but now they turn around and use phosphoric acid for water spots. It doesn't all quite add up and it was that which I was querying.



TOGWT said:
http://www.3dproducts.com/msds/105W_Eraser.pdf



I'm somewhat surprised that a chemist / product formulator would use 'scare' tactics like this
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I presume this was directed to me. I would refer you to what I posted above - had I intended to scare, I would have been much more specific. I would invite you to comment with regards to what I posted and why we don't have fallout removers based on phosphoric acid (as I can tell you that the resulting product would be much easier to use, cheaper and could be supplied at much higher activity levels than oxalic based products).
 
101/100 to cut. There was so much water spots on the hood, that the paint felt ripply. Is that the right word?



On other panels, out of frustration, I tried doing it by hand and stuff that would not move, no matter how hard it was hit, came right out by using a 4 inch orange pad and 101/100.







Legacy99 said:
That's some pretty etched water spots. What compound did you use? Like JuneBug, wet sanding may have been a better option.
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