Water Buffing

Aaron B

New member





About the video, the vehicle is an 03 Carbon Black M3. Paint correction was done with a Rupes 21 and 75, Megs MF Finishing pads for compounding with Megs M205, then I used a white Rupes pad for both the 21 and 75 with M205 varying speeds from 3 to 1.25 to finish (on my Rupes the dial does not go all the way down to 1.)





So it came time to add the coating to the vehicle, I was going to use 2 coats of Cquartz UK that I had purchased specifically for this vehicle. A few weeks back I did a 08 Jet Black M3, I used a product by CarPro called Eraser, it removes any residual polishing oils so the glass coating won't have an issue bonding to the clearcoat. For Microfiber towels I use MICROPAK Ultra-Plush Micro Fiber Towel's. I used Garry Dean's Infinite Diamond Shield glass coating. I had no issue's with the car, other than the horrible road paint, but that's a different story :-)





So I start spraying the Eraser on the hood of the vehicle, I grab my MF towel and begin to gently wipe it off, knowing full well I had to be cautious with this malleable clearcoat from my experience of polishing it. I did a small section and grabbed my 5000lumen LED light setup, DARN!!! (actually it was a few other choice words) I noticed marring! I thought about it for a minute, maybe the Eraser was showing that I polished incorrectly, I used a very similiar process on the other BMW and had no issue though, I looked more closely and it followed the pattern I had wiped with the MF towels. I did another little test, I buffed the marring out and wiped the M205 off from left to right, I then sprayed the Eraser and wiped from front to back GENTLY. I pulled the light's over and...insert explative!!!!



OK I thought, "maybe it's something in the Eraser?", doubt it but let me test some other things (in the "back of my mind" I was thinking, it may be the towels.) I tried 50/50 Reverse Osmosis/ IPA, same thing happened...explative! I went online and asked a few detailer buddies ;-) The response was try 80/20 ROwater/IPA, also, try 100% cotton plush terry cloth to wipe with instead of the MF towels. I did not have access to Show Car Detailings Super IPA so I had to just go with what was available. The results all ended the same way, light marring. Explative, explative, explative!!!



Alrighty then, its time to call a mentor, Kevin Brown...assistance please! He asked some questions and we started to take a look at what was occuring. He pointed out that with all the chemicals I had used the paint was probably swollen in the area I was testing. Time to move to the other side of the vehicle, in the conversation with him he suggested using very warm water as a rinse when using the MF towel while wiping off either the Eraser, or IPA mixture. I mentioned I had a steamer, lets give that a try he said... nothings working! this is so FRUSTRATING, Marring!!! I call Kevin back and let him know its a no go. He recommended a few more thing's to try, one being the blue shop towels, also a no go.





At this point I really just wanted to cry, seriously! I had been working on the vehicle from Tuesday afternoon till about 3am Wednsday morning when I finally tip toed into the house, to not wake my two sleeping children, crawled in bed like a ninja, and stayed up for the next 45 minutes worrying, "would what the guys recommended to me actually work?" I got back up around 8am and started the process all over untill about 2am Thursday morning, knowing I needed to get the vehicle back to the customer by mid to late Friday AND I still had the whole car to prep and put the coating on. A mild panic was setting in. I thought ok, just be present and stop listening to that little voice in your head screaming at you that your tired, that you can't do it, that your too stupid to figure it out. You know, that voice thats not very forgiving or constructive, filled with doubt and fear. By 2am Thursday morning , when I still did not have a process down, I was starting to question if it was possible at all. I was missing spending time with my family, I was starting to also question is this worth it? Most people would just slap some wax with filler on it and call it a day, is this just about me trying to get it "perfect" for my own satisfaction? Thursday nite was difficult, my 2 year old daughter woke up screaming for her mom, it was a restless nite.



By Thursday morning I was really starting to feel the effects from the lack of sleep, I drank some coffee, and chose to presence myself to the commitment to the customer, to provide passion and excellence in my work. That kept me going, along with encouragement from my wife, Kevin and Corey.





So back to the point where a process had still not been figured out by Thursday morning...I was dealing with anytime I used a product with alcohol in it, wiped while wet, or steamed(still slightly wet) Id get marring using either the MF towels, super plush 100% cotton towel, or the blue shop towels to wipe, or dry with. In the meantime I called Corey Caruth, and started having another conversation about what it would take to make sure no oil's, or residue, were left on the clearcoat from the polishing stages to apply the CQuartz, in the conversation he mentioned, "this is the devils paint", I couldnt have agreed more!



I tried using the actual suede towels that come with the Cquartz to see if they would marr, I mean even if I got the paint prepped, what would happen when I go to use the CQuartz applicator towel?....Marring! Dam!!!!! This is just incredible, I was at my wits end, I called up Kevin and he encouraged me to keep trying new things. He gets all the credit on this one, he mentioned water buffing. I thought, "that won't work!, but hell, nothing has, so lets try it. Out came the crimson LC hydrotech pad, Rupes 21 and RO water in a spray bottle with a touch of Dawn. I set the machine on its lowest setting, set it down on the clearcoat, turned it on ANNNDDD... sud's EVERYWHERE!



I forgot to spin dry the crimson pad I had soaked in clean water, ok lets try again. WOW this is fun! I grabbed some water to spritz it off then I grabbed my blow gun to dry, there was left over residue, which, there was quite a bit of. I misted the panel down with just RO water, switched to a clean pad and buffed some more, then air dryed. Flawless! I called Kevin and let him know, his suggestion worked, I wasnt expecting that! I thought to myself, "Kevin is a genious!" I told him so too!



What a relief, I really felt a lot of pressure dissipate. I knew now I could move on to the next step once I get the car totally prep'd, I just couldn't touch the clearocoat for drying. Also I wanted to deal with the amount of residue from using the dawn, so I decided to try Optimum Power Clean, it worked.





So the video begins with me showing the marring that occured from using just the MF towels and Eraser. I dont show where I corrected the hood back with M205 on the White Rupes pad. This is also to be continued as this was just about getting a process down to prep the car. Next I need to see if the CQuartz can be applied by foam applicator without marring, as I had tried a test spot with the CQuartz UK with suede applicator on a prep'd section which ended up marring. That was a whole world of frustration in and of itself!



I wanted to say thank you to Kevin Brown and Corey Caruth for the incredible dedication to solving the issue,their willingness to share their expertise, their encouragement and general kindness.
 
Sounds like you fixed it, but it's a gonna be nightmare in the making moving forward. Sounds like a perfect time to either set up a direct bill system with your client or have him loose your number. :behindsofa:
 
Thought I'd share a response from Kevin Brown on this from another site, I asked his permission first...





"As to the water buffing, yes it will work, but the most important thing to be aware of is that you've got to have something in the mix or a procedure that will control the build-up of paint residue.



If you polish a test panel or section with just water, you can literally see the moment the pad face has become saturated with paint residue (but you won't see it on the pad).



Once the pad has no more open area in which to store abraded paint residue, the residue will spin & roll & twist about between the pad and paint. Eventually, it'll stick to the freshly polished paint surface.. and it takes on the look of scratches!



It's not scratches, but instead just residue taking on the look of scratches (smears of paint residue akin to broken strands of spider web, or cotton candy).



The best finish I've ever achieved since I started using this polishing paint via machine (1987) was accomplished perhaps a month ago, using gobs of water that contained a small amount of lubricant (no petroleum-based solvents or oils, no silicones, not a detail spray), and occasional teeny-tiny drops of M205, and a Meguiar's W7207 Soft Buff Foam Cutting Pad, all via Rupes LHR21ES.



I know, the craziest combo for finishing paint, but there was a thought process involved. It's not a perfected combo either, because there is a potential for scouring due to the rigidity of the pad.



I've also been able to achieve a very similar result using a finishing pad, but it has been more difficult to replicate, I think due to structural changes of the pad (it become over-resilient, or it wears out due to use).



Anyway, don't expect to achieve a perfected finish using just water, just yet. The key is in finding a non-marring foam, one that is rigid, one that does not allow residue to stick to the pad, one that does not allow abrasive to readily attach to it, and to use a lubrication of some sort that helps to encapsulate paint residue (or at least keeps it in a disintegrated form).



Aaron was using very low speed, and I was using maximum speed. there are benefits and drawbacks to both. " by Kevin Brown
 
So this is just a way to clean off the paint after using an oily polish without causing any marring damage right?
 
dfoxengr said:
So this is just a way to clean off the paint after using an oily polish without causing any marring damage right?





Umm, no.



Just double checked to see if I wrote anything pertaining to that. Whew! I didn't.
 
So can we get an in depth explanation from the man himself? Would love to hear about the science behind this whole new phenom. :waxing:
 
Kevin Brown said:
Umm, no.



Just double checked to see if I wrote anything pertaining to that. Whew! I didn't.



No need to act so superior to us lowly uninformed people. Read the story from the original poster and youll see how his explanation made me infer that. Then maybe if you dont feel the need to put someone down, you can instead be helpful.



Thanks
 
dfoxengr said:
No need to act so superior to us lowly uninformed people. Read the story from the original poster and youll see how his explanation made me infer that. Then maybe if you dont feel the need to put someone down, you can instead be helpful.



Thanks



Saw your lil' guy holding the "Aww man sign", thought you were being facetious.



Didn't realize it was in your signature. Figured you for a Flash Gordon / Trouble protege.



Nevertheless, I didn't think you were lowly nor uninformed.:knockout:





 
dfoxengr said:
No need to act so superior to us lowly uninformed people. Read the story from the original poster and youll see how his explanation made me infer that. Then maybe if you dont feel the need to put someone down, you can instead be helpful.



Thanks



The water buffing technique wasn't developed to be used the way I used it, It just so happened that after trying many different things the water buffing came up in conversation with Kevin, I tried it with some OPC finally, after trying Dawn which left too much residue, and it worked. Kevin is now sharing about its intended purpose, which I also benefitted from, to my suprise. I can see how you would interepret Kevins response to your question the way you did, I will say however I dont think he meant it that way though. I can read it a different way, maybe send him a pm and give him a chance to clear it up.









As you can see he has a great sense of humor too!
 
Gotcha, no worries, and thanks to both of you. im just here to learn



I really would like to know more about the technique though. It does look interesting.
 
dfoxengr said:
Gotcha, no worries, and thanks to both of you. im just here to learn



I really would like to know more about the technique though. It does look interesting.



Thanks, yeah I've been hanging out on Detailer Buddies on Facebook, and there's a lot more ribbin' going on there, so I thought I was just responding in kind. :tape:



I'll be delving into the subject more in-depth sometime soon. Really need more time to outline a "definitely-works" process.
 
Aaron, that paint is the devils paint!! I can't believe the things that were marring it... Really never seen anything like that in person. Anyway, I understand that wasn't the intended use but with all the factors and troubleshooting involved and the fact it actually worked I would call it brilliant for this purpose in this specific case. Getting back to you tomorrow on the rest of the items we were discussing.
 
CEE DOG said:
Aaron, that paint is the devils paint!! I can't believe the things that were marring it... Really never seen anything like that in person. Anyway, I understand that wasn't the intended use but with all the factors and troubleshooting involved and the fact it actually worked I would call it brilliant for this purpose in this specific case. Getting back to you tomorrow on the rest of the items we were discussing.



Thank you Corey for the kind words, props to Kevin of course for suggesting it. And as always, excellent customer care Corey
 
I wanted to share the end result of this, the customer came back a few weeks later, in the meantime I had ordered the Crazy Pile towel from Corey at CarPro. After I did a touch up correction I thought I would give the Crazy pile towel a shot to see if it would marr. I misted the Eraser on and very gently wiped with the Crazy Pile towel, No marring! I couldn't believe it! What I ended up doing was misting the panels down with Eraser and cleaned using a black Meg's finishing pad on a Rupes21, lowest speed setting and cleaned the panels that way to make sure I got any residue off. I followed that with Reverse Osmosis water to rinse off the panels. I blow dryed the panels with my air gun and then very lightly misted with Eraser again and wiped off with the Crazy Pile towel, it came out immaculate! I applied Cquartz UK and after a few minor corrections to my technique it was finished! Thank you Corey Caruth and Kevin Brown!
 
Thanks Aaron for the rest of the story! This was a learning experience for me thanks to you and Kevin both. I'm also very happy to hear the Microfiber Madness towel was able to handle the job. They have never let us down yet :)
 
Sounds like you fixed it, but it's a gonna be nightmare in the making moving forward.
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fgmnszgjian said:
Sounds like you fixed it, but it's a gonna be nightmare in the making moving forward.
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Actually it hasn't been at all, just a pressure wash, optimum no rinse in a merino wool wash mitt, crazy pile MF towels from Corey at CarPro. No marring, looks fantastic
 
Barry and Kevin had a conversation on this subject quite awhile ago on another forum (truth in detailing) the forum is no longer valid so providing a hyperlink is pointless;, but perhaps Kevin or Barry would care to repost this very informative info
 
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