Washing in a coin-op

[David Fermani]

I've not used ONR, but I think the concept of "rinseless cleaning" doesn't make much sense. I want dirt to be off of the car entirely, not covered with lube and lightly trapped in an MF towel.



I don't know which coin-ops you go to, but it my experience you don't need the foam brush at all. Given that you have no clue about what gritty filth might be trapped in the foam brush, you are better off not using it IMHO.



Allowing the pre-soak to have time to dwell will allow it to loosen the dirt and cause the dirt to swell, making it softer. The softer, looser dirt is now more vulnerable to attack with the HP Soap.



The HP soap alone won't remove all road film, since its not as strong a detergent as the pre-soak is. Applying lots of pre-soak and letting it dwell is really the secret of touchless cleaning.





Indeed main way the foam brush cleans, is through the fact that the foam brush soap has a long dwell time on the surface of the car (while the customer is busy swishing the brush over the car, the soaps in the foam are softening the dirt, getting it ready to be blasted away by HP soap).



You are going to get more force/agitation from the high pressure water stream than you can ever safely create with boars hair brush (or MF towel) that you are lightly floating along the surface of the car.



If you don't think so, try holding your hand 10 inches in front of the wand tip at high pressure for a while.Not so easy.



If you can't get a car clean in 15-20 minutes at the coin op, there are bigger issues involved.

Seeing that I'm not a fan of ONR at this point in detailing, I have no need to disagree with your views on this product. I have a sample to test & I'm waiting for the right opportunity....



I'm relatively familiar with the coin-op car wash systems available. I actually managed a 13 bay Indoor Do-It-Yourself TOTALLY TOUCHLESS self serve for over 10 years in the Metro Detroit area. The owner all together had ~40 touchless bays as well as a touchless tunnel wash (a long one). We offered no brushes and had Techical Advisors from Blue Coral, Simonize, Stone Soap Company and a host of others examine our operation and NOT A SINGLE one could devise a 2 step cleaning process (acid/alkaline) that could safely clean cars 100%, 100% of the time. The worst time to attempt to clean a vehicle without friction is when a vehicle has gone through colder wet weather(snow/rain) and then goes into a warner one for a cleaning. Getting the top layer of dirt off isn't that difficult, but removing the road oils can virtually be impossible. It doesn't matter if the vehicle is brand new, just waxed or wasn't one bit dirty prior to entering the wet weather conditions.



Foam brushes at self serve car washes are the absolute worst medium to rub against your vehicle's paint. I would rather drive a dirty car instead of rub one across my paint. But, 99.9999% of coin-ops have them because their use is almost mandatory to clean your car if you rely on their weak pre-soak and wash concentrates.



Yes, dwell time certainly *helps*, but in no way is that any kind of secret. No matter how much you soak an oily/dirty car with a heavy PH cleaner, it still doesn't get the car 100% clean (but many times close). Bumping up the pressure as well as the soap concentration and turning up the heat help too, but not on a car that has more than non-embedded topical dirt. Any formulation that does totally clean could increased the potential to damaging trim and definately stripping any kind of protection that might be on the finish. Making your customers not too happy.



Next time your PT Cruiser is dirty, try your method and dry it with a brand new white towel and see what color is changes to. Then think about all the micro swirls you just created by wiping that dirt into your finish as the towel picked it up. Sounds like recipe for constant polishing and waxing to me = 1 step forward and 4 steps back...

 

[Poordude]

Car wash soap should be applied from the bottom to the top at low pressure and rinsed from the top to bottom with higher pressure. Any good quality product used at proper dilution with soft water will work well. Lotsa guys cheap out & use an inexpensive degreaser or improper dilution so results can vary.I have been selling these products for a large chemical manufacterer for 25 years & know goodquality products will work with proper application/dilution.

 

[GoudyL]

Seeing that I'm not a fan of ONR at this point in detailing, I have no need to disagree with your views on this product. I have a sample to test & I'm waiting for the right opportunity....



I'm relatively familiar with the coin-op car wash systems available. I actually managed a 13 bay Indoor Do-It-Yourself TOTALLY TOUCHLESS self serve for over 10 years in the Metro Detroit area. The owner all together had ~40 touchless bays as well as a touchless tunnel wash (a long one). We offered no brushes and had Techical Advisors from Blue Coral, Simonize, Stone Soap Company and a host of others examine our operation and NOT A SINGLE one could devise a 2 step cleaning process (acid/alkaline) that could safely clean cars 100%, 100% of the time.

You aren't going to be able to clean 100% of the cars 100% of the time using auto touchless systems, but given that which a human at the wand, you have some intelligence at hand, and so will focus the cleaning on the dirtier area's etc. VS a touchless automatic which applies a uniform washing.



IMHO if you had the ability to do a two stage presoak in self-serve you would be able to get cars that much cleaner. Or perhaps a 2-stage HP soap cycle, or HP Acid rinse. It's hard to drop the inorganic dirt w/o acids.



That said, someone using a coin-op wash, touchless-style, and in an intelligent fashion is going to end up with a nice clean car.

The worst time to attempt to clean a vehicle without friction is when a vehicle has gone through colder wet weather(snow/rain) and then goes into a warner one for a cleaning. Getting the top layer of dirt off isn't that difficult, but removing the road oils can virtually be impossible. It doesn't matter if the vehicle is brand new, just waxed or wasn't one bit dirty prior to entering the wet weather conditions.

Indeed, road oils are a pain to remove since they are slightly sticky and hydrophobic. That's why just like with dry cleaning, pre-spoting is so important. A little bug and tar remover or Dawn does wonders on the rocker panels and other oily places.



Same concept with wheel cleaning, the coin-ops wheel cleaner isn't very effective. So I preclean the wheels using Mother's FX Wheel Cleaner (Oxalic Acid based) and some shop towels, and then final clean with HP soap.



Still on my list of things to try is using diluted Black Magic Titanium Wheel Cleaner (or E1 Aluminum Wash) (which is pH neutral) to pre spot oily panels. My guess is that it is a very strong surfactant/solvent system which will cleanly cut through road oil.



Still its not a problem I've much encountered.

But, 99.9999% of coin-ops have them because their use is almost mandatory to clean your car if you rely on their weak pre-soak and wash concentrates.

That's why you need to find a coin-op that uses good chemicals (IMHO seeing empty Simoniz Barrels is a good sign). And the $6 Bucket wash (using two $3/4min sessions) is workable technique as well.

Yes, dwell time certainly *helps*, but in no way is that any kind of secret. No matter how much you soak an oily/dirty car with a heavy PH cleaner, it still doesn't get the car 100% clean (but many times close). Bumping up the pressure as well as the soap concentration and turning up the heat help too, but not on a car that has more than non-embedded topical dirt.

In my experience most folks don't understand the importance of letting the presoak dwell on the car. If they let it sit for just 30-60 seconds longer the car would get that much cleaner.



A really dirty car is going to call for hand washing (or some type of wash with friction/contact), It's a poor workman who doesn't change his technique to the circumstances.

Any formulation that does totally clean could increased the potential to damaging trim and definately stripping any kind of protection that might be on the finish. Making your customers not too happy.

If I'm going to be applying a new layer of wax, I tend not to care too much about the condition of the old one. Especially since claying and applying any wax with cleaning abilities will do a number on the old wax job anyways.



Wax is cheap to replace, clearcoat not so much. :2thumbs:

Next time your PT Cruiser is dirty, try your method and dry it with a brand new white towel and see what color is changes to. Then think about all the micro swirls you just created by wiping that dirt into your finish as the towel picked it up. Sounds like recipe for constant polishing and waxing to me = 1 step forward and 4 steps back...

In my experience using fluffy vroom towels, I get no color change. The dirt is gone.



However you do bring up a good point about the potential for scratching when drying (Minimised if you float the towels over the surface), so perhaps a few quick sprays of QD (which will help drop the water as well) is a good idea. :hifive:

 

[itb76]

I really don't want to get in the middle of the debate above, but I'll admit it takes a leap of faith to even try ONR. I tried it and I'm glad I did. It's easy to use, and I've found it cleans better than the car wash soap I had been using.



I took a pool car through a touchless automatic wash a few weeks back, then sprayed it with QD and dried it off. The drying towels got quite dirty, but hey, that was more love than that car probably ever got. Washed the filthy windows too.

 

[David Fermani]

You can’t have this: :nono

Straight up I'll say getting the car clean is the most important thing.



I want dirt to be off of the car entirely



Once you are done, you can dry off your car (with a waffle weave towel or two), and admire your clean car.



I get no color change. The dirt is gone.

By doing this: :nervous2::soscared:

IMHO if you had the ability to do a two stage presoak in self-serve you would be able to get cars that much cleaner. Or perhaps a 2-stage HP soap cycle, or HP Acid rinse. It's hard to drop the inorganic dirt w/o acids.



someone using a coin-op wash, touchless-style, and in an intelligent fashion is going to end up with a nice clean car.



If they let it sit for just 30-60 seconds longer the car would get that much cleaner.



I don't know which coin-ops you go to, but it my experience you don't need the foam brush at all.

Because you’ll end up having to do this::wall:waxing:

If I'm going to be applying a new layer of wax, I tend not to care too much about the condition of the old one.



If you can't get a car clean in 15-20 minutes at the coin op, there are bigger issues involved.



IMHO you are best off spot polishing any area's that need polishing with some KIT scratch out, and then applying some spray wax (I recomend Lucas Slick Mist) and calling it a day.

Just because you didn’t do this::think::think2:up

Indeed, road oils are a pain to remove since they are slightly sticky and hydrophobic. That's why just like with dry cleaning, pre-spoting is so important. A little bug and tar remover or Dawn does wonders on the rocker panels and other oily places.



And the $6 Bucket wash (using two $3/4min sessions) is workable technique as well.



A really dirty car is going to call for hand washing



However you do bring up a good point about the potential for scratching when drying

 

[jswhitley]

never tried onr but id much rather use it than spraying cheap wheel cleaner on rockers, or using the quarter wash "detergent"

 

[Darkstar752]

never tried onr but id much rather use it than spraying cheap wheel cleaner on rockers, or using the quarter wash "detergent"

x2. I think it would just strip off any wax on the car, but I have not tested that theory yet and don't plan to.



David, about your above post, GoudyL doesn't believe in polishing, removes massive amounts of clear coat :LOLOL And if you get a chance, I recommend ONR. Not on an extremely soiled car, but I did it to a decently dirty car and did not notice any added swirls. It's worth a try.

 

[craigdt]

I've not used ONR, but I think the concept of "rinseless cleaning" doesn't make much sense. I want dirt to be off of the car entirely, not covered with lube and lightly trapped in an MF towel.

It doesnt matter where it ends up, as long as its not on your paint. If you use ONR correctly, I think that its been proven that the paint will be cleaned completely.

 

[efnfast]

You can't clean a lot of the dirt off just using the pressure washer; you need to aggitate with a mit.



The pressure is good to loosen it and remove the really caked on stuff, but there's no way to go to a car wash, use their pressure washer soap&rinse, and expect the finish to be anywhere near clean.

 

[jmblur]

Couple more questions, since I've got stuff on the way for Thursday! (unfortunately flying out of town for the weekend Friday, so washing will need to wait...)



After a spray down (probably just at an automated no-touch), P21S gel on wheels, and ONR, I plan on doing some chip/ding repair (per the guide on here), hitting any bad spots (bird etching, stupid people hitting my bumpers or opening doors into me, etc.) with ScratchX 2.0., and then claying. Should I clay before the ScratchX? Does it matter?



I'm not going to polish since I don't have a PC/Rotary. It's Silver, so swirls don't really show up



After that, I have a little sample bottle of Meg's Cleaner wax (enough to do the car) and some KAIO coming. If I put the cleaner wax over the KAIO, will it just strip any protection from the KAIO off? Should I be putting another wax or sealant on to protect the car, or is the KAIO enough? Again, Silver car, daily driver, not a show car, so I'm not concerned so much about depth of finish and super shininess as I am just looking nice, staying clean, and staying protected.



Thanks again folks!

 

[jswhitley]

dont get me the hi pressure works great for getting all the big stuff off, but as far as getting ur car clean with their hi pressure soap, and pre soak is for the average joe that just doesnt know any better

 

[craigdt]

Clay first.

Then ScratchX 2

Then AIO. Skip the cleaner wax.

Top with a quality wax or sealant.

 

[jmblur]

looks like I should pick up a wax or sealant than, thanks Craig. Any decent OTC ones out there (seem to be some people recommending the NXT 2.0 here)? I don't really feel like paying shipping for a single product. Also not looking to spend $300 on wax, car's got too many parking dings (I hate Boston/DC/Baltimore drivers... sigh) to need to be pristine

 

[GoudyL]

x2. I think it would just strip off any wax on the car, but I have not tested that theory yet and don't plan to.



David, about your above post, GoudyL doesn't believe in polishing, removes massive amounts of clear coat :LOLOL And if you get a chance, I recommend ONR. Not on an extremely soiled car, but I did it to a decently dirty car and did not notice any added swirls. It's worth a try.

For someone just out of highschool, perhaps you ought to think a bit more about why folks more experienced than yourself might reach the conclusions they have and what is the basis for their thinking. :think:



I've never said I'm against polishing per se. However I think that it's commonly overdone and counterproductive in situations where the customer isn't going to keep the car in showcar condition. The car will get scratched up again, only this time with a thinner layer of clear coat.



If I'm working a typical DD, there will be a be a brand new layer of micromarring installed within a few days/weeks (to say nothing of when the winter salt/sand season arrives), and so worrying about creating a jewel perfect finish is pointless. Not worth the time nor the lost clearcoat.



I think the instant wow effect of doing a good two step polishing, can blind people to the amount of clearcoat lost in re-leveling the paint.



My focus is on getting the surface nice, clean and smooth enough so that the wax can take care of any imperfections.



That may require polishing above that provided by pre-wax cleaner, and if that's needed (and the customer is willing to pay for restorative work) I'll gladly do it. Although IMHO the best way to the protect the paint is to leave it on the car in the first place.



Dave is just being obstinate, since anyone who has ever used a decent self-serve car wash (Not a touchless automatic) intelligently on a car of average dirtiness, has ended up with a car that was much cleaner than what he started with and without adherant dust. If Dave can't manage that, that's his problem. :closed:

 

[Dsoto87]

The car is either clean or its not. If its not 100 percent clean, marring will occur, bottom line.



And the bottom line about using a coin op with no aggitation is it won't get it 100 percent clean.



If I take my garden hose and rinse the car, it will be cleaner than what I started with so that's kind of a moot point.

 

[jswhitley]

My focus is on getting the surface nice, clean and smooth enough so that the wax can take care of any imperfections.[/QUOTE]

does tw ice take out all ur imperfections?

 

[jswhitley]

goudy if making a car look good was as simple as u explain it, we'd all be bored

 

[craigdt]

:har: Indeed!

 

[David Fermani]

I've never said I'm against polishing per se. However I think that it's commonly overdone and counterproductive in situations where the customer isn't going to keep the car in showcar condition. The car will get scratched up again, only this time with a thinner layer of clear coat.



If I'm working a typical DD, there will be a be a brand new layer of micromarring installed within a few days/weeks (to say nothing of when the winter salt/sand season arrives), and so worrying about creating a jewel perfect finish is pointless. Not worth the time nor the lost clearcoat.

I bet there would be with your current wash regiment in place. If paint is properly cared for, you’ll NEVER need anything more than a super micro polish. With the proper product/process, you could polish a car 100 times and maybe remove a few microns (not mils). Or do your spray and scratch technique and easily marr the finish to the point of needing a compound. Which stategy mitigates harming your paint?

My focus is on getting the surface nice, clean and smooth enough so that the wax can take care of any imperfections.

Relying on wax to hide & fill defects due to the lack of proper wash techniques isn’t a very intelligent method to proper car care. Autopian Guide to Detailing 101.

Dave is just being obstinate, since anyone who has ever used a decent self-serve car wash (Not a touchless automatic) intelligently on a car of average dirtiness, has ended up with a car that was much cleaner than what he started with and without adherant dust. If Dave can't manage that, that's his problem

Gee, am I lacking some common sense here, or is this the most XXXX statement you’ve made so far? Intelligent detailers wouldn’t use a self-serve car wash and rely on a heavy pre-soak & wash down to insure their vehicle was clean (because it’s not). You can spray your car down with a garden hose and it will be cleaner that it was before. Just because it’s cleaner, doesn’t render it totally clean? Or I guess it does by your standards…

For someone just out of highschool, perhaps you ought to think a bit more about why folks more experienced than yourself might reach the conclusions they have and what is the basis for their thinking.

(And I'm food chemist, so more familiar with food polymers than paints)

That may require polishing above that provided by pre-wax cleaner, and if that's needed (and the customer is willing to pay for restorative work) I'll gladly do it. Although IMHO the best way to the protect the paint is to leave it on the car in the first place.

For a food chemist you sure try acting like you’re a Pro Detailer on the internet.

 

[hondaguy2582]

Spray the brush real good after your car is already sprayed down, then soap the surface and go to town. I personally do not experience scratches anymore at coinups as long as I rinse the brush before hand. Plus the foaming brush keeps the surface lubricated!!!