Ultimate Winter Wash theory thread

[Less]

Downgear - what LSP is on that red hatchback, how long ago was it applied, and how long has it been since you last washed it?



To everyone else who claims to use ONR without fail - please answer the same questions.



My theory is that there will be a very strong correlation between number of people whose cars are well protected, and frequently cleaned and the number of people who have great success with ONR.



I think this forum leads people to believe (though probably not purposely) that ONR is some miracle product that allows you to wash your vehicle without risk regardless of water availability or climate. Let's face it, if such a product really existed, the soap industry would be in some serious trouble.



Perhaps there is a reason why companies like Meguiars, Turtle Wax, Mothers, and other widely available car care brands aren't falling over themselves producing a rinseless wash product.



The questions was asked a few posts earlier in this thread. If ONR works so well, why use anything else? The reason is that ONR doesn't provide anywhere near as much lubrication as regular soap. Also, the water left behind has dirt suspended in it (encapsulation). And no matter how careful you are, drying dirty water from your car is much more risky than drying clean water. And finally, when you start an ONR wash, you're already behind because you don't have the luxury of rinsing the car with a hose first. That rinse removes most of the larger dirt particles from the car and makes the subsequent wash that much easier. Without that pre-rinse, you're left with just your wash mitt to take off all that extra dirt. Again, it's not impossible, just riskier.



So, is it impossible to wash that red hatchback in Downgear's post with ONR and not scratch the car. No, it's not impossible. Will it take more time than a regular wash. Oh hell yeah. And when it comes to technique, the margin for error is much smaller.



So at the end of the day, ONR requires you to wash the car without a good pre-rinse, and with less lubrication than a regular wash. So the notion that you can wash a car with ONR just as easily as a normal wash is unrealistic.



However, there are steps you can take. A slick, well maintained, LSP on your car will make up for some of ONR's lack of lubrication. If you make it harder for dirt to adhere to your car, then you will need less agitation from a wash mitt to remove it, and therefore you won't need as much lubrication to prevent scratches.



Secondly, frequent washing with ONR is going to increase your success rate, and cut down on the time it takes to do each wash. The nice thing about a traditional wash, is that you only ever have to clean what's left after the pre-rinse. With ONR, you have to clean everything that's on the car from the beginning.



So, if you live somewhere cold and you want to keep your car clean with ONR through winter, then you had better be committed. You're going to need to be out there every week, you're going to need to stay ahead of the salt and sand that is going to be battering your paint every day. It's likely that you're going to have to work somewhere that is not heated.



Just make sure you are balancing the intensity and frequency of your efforts with your expectations of results.



ONR has it's pitfalls, it is not a miracle product.

 

[ABQDetailer]

I would just hit that red car with my pressure washer then ONR it. I'm loving this combo actually. Going to grab a Cam Spray soon and do a PW rinse, PW foam soak, PW rinse off the soap, then finish with ONR. I can't think of an easier way to clean a really dirty car...right now just a PW rinse and ONR wash is doing the job perfectly. The foam cannon would just be overkill but I'm all about overkill...especially when it's not much more effort to foam/rinse the car.



Less you sound like somebody who either hasn't used ONR or just didn't like it? It's okay not to conform to the Autopian masses! Personally I think ONR is one of the hyped Autopia products that not only lives up to the hype but exceeds it.

 

[Bunky]

ONR has it's pitfalls, it is not a miracle product.

I know people have said using a higher concentration of ONR to water does not clean better but it should provide better lubrication if the concern is lubrication.



If ONR can meet the requirements of a clay lube and I have not heard many saying soap does well, then I would think ONR has the potential to have more real lubricity than soap.

 

[akimel]

My theory is that there will be a very strong correlation between number of people whose cars are well protected, and frequently cleaned and the number of people who have great success with ONR.

Doesn't your theory also obtain for those who wash their car with hose and car shampoo? The better the car is protected and the more frequently washed, the easier it is to wash the car without creating swirls.



I acknowledge your key point, that the dirtier the car is the greater the challenge to wash it well without creating swirls and scratches. Those who have available to them a foam gun or pressure washer certainly have an advantage. Those of us who have neither, therefore, have a greater challenge, and this obtains for both traditional washing and ONR washing.

The questions was asked a few posts earlier in this thread. If ONR works so well, why use anything else? The reason is that ONR doesn't provide anywhere near as much lubrication as regular soap.

Is this in fact true? Do you ONR users agree?

So, if you live somewhere cold and you want to keep your car clean with ONR through winter, then you had better be committed. You're going to need to be out there every week, you're going to need to stay ahead of the salt and sand that is going to be battering your paint every day. It's likely that you're going to have to work somewhere that is not heated.

Here, I think, your argument goes astray. The simple fact is, winter provides a real challenge for everyone who wants to keep their car clean, and this challenge is compounded for those who do not have heated garages. So what are the practical choices available? Surely a traditional washer has to be just as well committed, if not more so, than the ONR washer. It might also be noted that the ONR washer also has available to him the option of going to the coin-op car wash and rinsing off the salt and crud before using the ONR.



I have not yet used ONR but I got a bottle for the winter and will be trying it out soon.



Cheers,

Al

 

[AeroCleanse]

Less,

If the car in Downgear's post is already that neglected its already full of scratches. I wonder if you have ever used ONR yourself.

 

[Downgear]

Less,

If the car in Downgear's post is already that neglected its already full of scratches. I wonder if you have ever used ONR yourself.

I can 100% assure you my cars are the furthest thing from neglected. Take any clean car down a road at high speed in the middle of a salty dirty winter and they will look like that within seconds. Cleaning it off is the strategy i am trying to perfect. The close-up pictures of the baby swirls on the black hood were taken after an entire winter of washes from last season and I find to be very minimal. This year I created this post to learn from mine and others mistakes in an attempt to inflict even less damage this winter season, while still keeping my car looking good for the the odd nice day.

 

[AeroCleanse]

I can 100% assure you my cars are the furthest thing from neglected. Take any clean car down a road at high speed in the middle of a salty dirty winter and they will look like that within seconds. Cleaning it off is the strategy i am trying to perfect. The close-up pictures of the baby swirls on the black hood were taken after an entire winter of washes from last season and I find to be very minimal. This year I created this post to learn from mine and others mistakes in an attempt to inflict even less damage this winter season, while still keeping my car looking good for the the odd nice day.

I know about the salt issue, I live in Wisconsin. ONR works great for me, just remember you may have to make a few passes with it before you dry. You can also try holding the mitt or whatever your applicator is, over bad areas.

 

[Less]

I am in no way suggesting that Downgear's cars are neglected. The S2000 looks exactly like I would expect it to look after a week or so of winter driving. Particularly if it snowed recently. The red hatchback looks like it either hasn't been washed in 2+ weeks or just so happened to drive alot of miles since the last wash.



I have used ONR, with success. I am in no way advocating that it is not a viable product.



I'm merely suggesting that it has its drawbacks and pitfalls, just like any other product.



I see far to many posts on this forum where people claim to use ONR on vehicles as dirty as the red hatchback and claim to have no trouble, no scratches, no marring, and no hassle. It's just not true.



Traditional soap provides better lubrication than ONR. It's a simple fact.



Also, a traditional wash has the luxury of a pressurized water spray, not only to remove larger dirt particles from teh car, but it can also be used to rinse dirt from the wash mitt itself.



ONR does not have those luxuries, and therefore, more time and effort must be expended in order to achieve the same results.



AeroClenase is right on when he says "you may have to make a few passes" or "try holding the mitt over bad areas".



I'm not trying to turn people off to ONR. I use it, and I recommend it 100%. But I only use it when a traditional wash is not possible.



Downgear - your pics of the swirls after an entire winter of washing are way better than I would have expected. You should be very happy with those results. If you're attempting to inflict less damage this winter, don't get your hopes up. Winter is brutal and road salt is pretty tough. The results you had last year are probably as good as anyone can hope for.

 

[AeroCleanse]

I see far to many posts on this forum where people claim to use ONR on vehicles as dirty as the red hatchback and claim to have no trouble, no scratches, no marring, and no hassle. It's just not true.

Maybe you haven't, but don't suggest that neither has anyone else. I have used ONR on cars that are worse than the red hatchback and have had no trouble at all.

 

[Less]

Maybe you haven't, but don't suggest that neither has anyone else. I have used ONR on cars that are worse than the red hatchback and have had no trouble at all.

Did it take longer? Did you find yourself needing to be extra careful with your mitt pressure? How many times did you rinse your mitt compared to a regular wash? Did you have to do extra passes?



Let's not start a pissing contest here. I'm not saying that it's impossible to wash a very dirty car with ONR. I'm just saying that ONR washes are not interchangeable with traditional washes. ONR is an alternative, not a substitute.

 

[AeroCleanse]

Did it take longer? Did you find yourself needing to be extra careful with your mitt pressure? How many times did you rinse your mitt compared to a regular wash? Did you have to do extra passes?



Let's not start a pissing contest here. I'm not saying that it's impossible to wash a very dirty car with ONR. I'm just saying that ONR washes are not interchangeable with traditional washes. ONR is an alternative, not a substitute.

I'm always careful no matter what method I use. I probably rinsed it 3 times rather than 1. I generaly do 4 passes with ONR no matter what, and didn't do any extra, however I did let the microfiber sit on tougher stuff for a while.



I disagree that its not a subsitutue, it just takes a different technique to wash with ONR. Plus there is no water runoff with ONR, so there isn't a need to invest in a water reclaimation system, like you have to do with the more traditional method. Another benifit of ONR is you do each section at a time so you don't end up with water spots all over the car from it drying too fast.



For a mobile detailer like me, ONR or steam (or a combo) is all I'll use.

 

[Less]

I'm always careful no matter what method I use.

Of course you are. But when you're using less lubrication, and less rinsing, the margin for error becomes smaller. So yes, be as careful as you can no matter what, but no one is perfect, and any mistakes are going to be amplified when the margin for error is so small.

I probably rinsed it 3 times rather than 1. I generaly do 4 passes with ONR no matter what, and didn't do any extra, however I did let the microfiber sit on tougher stuff for a while.

So what you're saying is....you have to do a little bit extra to get ONR to work the way you want it to. More passes, more rinsing, etc.

I disagree that its not a subsitutue, it just takes a different technique to wash with ONR.

We're splitting hairs here, but the fact that it takes a different technique makes it NOT a substitute. I can substitute one brand of car soap for another and not change my technique. I can't do that with ONR. It requires an alternative method.



Let's suppose I have to drive my car to the store to buy milk. I could take my wife's car (substitute), or I could walk (alternative).

Plus there is no water runoff with ONR, so there isn't a need to invest in a water reclaimation system, like you have to do with the more traditional method.

I don't see why this would be a problem for a mobile detailer. Do you really wash cars in the same spot often enough that this would be a problem? And for the hobbyist like Downgear and myself, this isn't really a concern either. I wash my car in my driveway, and the water goes wherever it goes.

Another benifit of ONR is you do each section at a time so you don't end up with water spots all over the car from it drying too fast.

I'm not arguing that there aren't pros and cons to each type of wash. If you have problems with water spots, then ONR is a perfeclty fine solution. I wash my car in the shade, rinse well, and keep it protected, so I dont' really have trouble with water spots in a traditional wash.



I'm not against ONR. I use it myself. All I'm saying is that it is very different than a regular wash. It's not a miracle product. It carries it's fair share of risks and requirements that have to be considered.



In your own words, you rinse your mitt more often, and you use more passes when washing with ONR. If it really is a substitute for a traditional wash, then why the extra steps??



It's because you KNOW that the risk of scratches is higher and the margin for error is smaller.



My whole point, is to answer Downgear's question. He's asking if ONR will give him better results than the traditional washes he's done at the coin-op. He went a whole winter and came out the other side with what I consider to be minimal defects in his paint. Is using ONR going to yeild different results this year, I'm guessing probably not.

 

[AeroCleanse]

I don't see why this would be a problem for a mobile detailer. Do you really wash cars in the same spot often enough that this would be a problem? And for the hobbyist like Downgear and myself, this isn't really a concern either. I wash my car in my driveway, and the water goes wherever it goes.

Yes it is a problem, and I know at least two detailers that were shut down because they let wash water run off into the storm drain. It just looks bad when your at an office building and you have dirty car wash water running all over their property.



Knowing what chemicals they use at the local coin-op where I live, I would never take a car there.

 

[Less]

Yes it is a problem, and I know at least two detailers that were shut down because they let wash water run off into the storm drain. It just looks bad when your at an office building and you have dirty car wash water running all over their property.



Knowing what chemicals they use at the local coin-op where I live, I would never take a car there.

Ok fair enough. I don't do mobile detailing for a living so I just didn't know why it would be a problem. Thanks for clarifying.



I don't live in an area where thare are water usage restrictions, or any kind of hysteria over dirty wash water flowing into the ground or sewer drains. So I don't need ONR for those reasons.

 

[bill57]

I found success with warm water and lots of suds for caked on salt. I use a lamb's wool mit, and found hair shampoo (it is gentle enough for hair and doesn't remove my Collinite) to provide a slicker removal than car shampoo.

 

[reparebrise]

I live in a very wintery place Quebec, I drive black cars, and only use waterless wash and ONR, none of my cars have ever been waxed, polished or cared for in any other way than with waterless and ONR. and I invite anyone to come see my cars.



Yes one must be carefull, but it can be done, and with much less hassle than witha hose and bucket. Where one has water there is also freezing, and trust me customers do not like to be frozen out of there cars because the detailer did not properly dry the lock, or rubber seals on the door. Most of the dammage we see on customers cars is caused not by washing but by removing the snow on the car. A brush is used to sweep the snow off the car, and that car is not always clean.



As a worst case scenario a quick hit with the steamer melt the ice and remove the large particles, than you are ready to move forward with water wise techniques. Below are pics of my car being washed, and it's at the limit of using a waterless product fro us.

 

[Downgear]

Thats some good work with that mustang. I put an order in to replenish my soap collection with some ONR and my all time favorite; Optimum normal soap . The box was quoted at 30lbs and I cant wait to test out the ONR this weekend. I will post some pictures and opinions when I am done! After all the advice given above, I plan to go to the self spray carwash bays and pressurewash all the major stuff off and in my heated garage try out ONR when i get home.

 

[Matt_L]

I just received my first order of ONR this week and tried it out on my lightly salted silver car. It worked great! I don't know if this is overkill but what I did was I mixed up an ONR 'pre-soak' in a commercial spray bottle. I sprayed each panel and let it dwell for a few minutes before using the MF mitt.



When things get really salty I plan on stopping at the coin op first and ONLY using the RINSE setting to get most of the salt off first.



I have'nt tried the ONR on the black car yet.

 

[Downgear]

Thats some good work with that mustang. I put an order in to replenish my soap collection with some ONR and my all time favorite; Optimum normal soap . The box was quoted at 30lbs and I cant wait to test out the ONR this weekend. I will post some pictures and opinions when I am done! After all the advice given above, I plan to go to the self spray carwash bays and pressurewash all the major stuff off and in my heated garage try out ONR when i get home.

My car is soft black honda paint that swirls when you even get close to it. Accumulators boars hair/constant foam gun pressure, followed by sheepskin dual bucket system kept it perfect however. I hate to make my car the guinea pig but I will go for it and post up the results.

 

[Bitfryer]

My car is soft black honda paint that swirls when you even get close to it. Accumulators boars hair/constant foam gun pressure, followed by sheepskin dual bucket system kept it perfect however. I hate to make my car the guinea pig but I will go for it and post up the results.

Any update on your experience with ONR?