Toyota Halts Sales of Eight U.S. Models After Recall

[Lenny]

You can pull if it off if you are confident on the design and makes sense when it works, Otherwise, you have to deal with two tools to debug, etc.



It does take cooperation from the designer, manufacturing engineer, and the molder to pull it off. In many eng companies (I am think American companies) there is a lack of cooperation between the various groups. It is another culture thing. It is more toss it over the wall mentality.



It also shows they are not trying to get it right the first time...let's practice once because we have little confidence.

They cooperate just fine. You have to prototype and physically test, because you can't possibly factor every single variable in, to utilize virtual testing as the majority of your product development process. Toyota themselves admitted to that in 2007, when then CEO Katsuaki Watanabe said they would do more prototyping.



Here's an article from 2007 on this: Quality Concerns

For several years, Toyota has taken pride in reducing vehicle development time and adopting time-saving innovations such as virtual prototypes. But those measures have lowered the quality of Toyota vehicles, engineers and executives acknowledge.

 

[Bunky]

They cooperate just fine.

I am sure American industry types would say that.



Have you worked with Japanese manufacturers and suppliers? I have and I work in the R&D environment where we do design, tooling, etc. so I know all the issues about tooling including prototype tooling prior to hard tooling. I have worked with domestic suppliers that did work for all three manufacturers in the past and had seen how they work.

 

[Lenny]

I am sure American industry types would say that.



Have you worked with Japanese manufacturers and suppliers? I have and I work in the R&D environment where we do design, tooling, etc. so I know all the issues about tooling including prototype tooling prior to hard tooling. I have worked with domestic suppliers that did work for all three manufacturers in the past and had seen how they work.

Just some Honda experience before I got laid off, and then some Nissan experience from 2002. Saw nothing that stood out either way, good or bad, comparing them with Ford, where I had quite a bit more experience. What Ford used to be good for was having lots of meetings, but in terms of prototyping both car parts and tooling, I can't say I saw a lot of differences in the basics.



Toyota experience is indirect, having work with several American and European Tier One and Tier Two parts suppliers, and that's where the differences really stood out - a lot less in the way of physical prototyping, to the point where the Tier One and Tier Two parts suppliers were wondering whether Toyota really knew what they were doing, relying so much on virtual testing. I also have several family members who are development engineers for American and European owned Tier One suppliers, and a family friend who works as an engineer for Yazaki, and they've been questioning how Toyota does things. The Yazaki engineer said he wouldn't touch a Toyota hybrid (and Yazaki supplies ALL the hybrids with components), because he doesn't trust their R &D procedures. He said he'll buy the Fusion or the Insight long before he'd consider a Prius or a Camry Hybrid.



I also quoted and sold a lot of metal fab work for production tooling for all the car plants in North America - saw zero differences there, except Honda likes to double up on some tooling and keep spare machine tool parts on hand.

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

It's not near as bad as the media is spinning it. Only american made toyota's are effected and even on certian ones of those are. They have several manufactures of the gas pedal and only one company messed up. But the media spin cycle is running amuck making it sound like every toyota on the planet is effected. When it's actually less than 40% of just the american made ones. (and apprently it's stupidly simple fix too according to the techs doing them)

 

[Lenny]

It's not near as bad as the media is spinning it. Only american made toyota's are effected and even on certian ones of those are. They have several manufactures of the gas pedal and only one company messed up. But the media spin cycle is running amuck making it sound like every toyota on the planet is effected. When it's actually less than 40% of just the american made ones. (and apprently it's stupidly simple fix too according to the techs doing them)

They're using exactly one manufacturer in the USA, CTS, and one in Japan, Denso, who they own 80% of. I don't know who has the contract in Europe.

 

[Lenny]

It's not near as bad as the media is spinning it. Only american made toyota's are effected and even on certian ones of those are. They have several manufactures of the gas pedal and only one company messed up. But the media spin cycle is running amuck making it sound like every toyota on the planet is effected. When it's actually less than 40% of just the american made ones. (and apprently it's stupidly simple fix too according to the techs doing them)

And it's exactly as bad as the media is spinning it. Toyota can't restart either production or sales until they have a fix in hand. They say they're close, but no cigar yet. It's not that simple a fix, because before they can go forward with it, NHTSA has to sign off on it. The vendor who makes the part can only make so many of the part, and only has so much manufacturing capsity for it, as do their suppliers, and Toyota has a huge recall on their hands at over 4 million vehicles. It will be months before they get enough parts to start making a dent in the amount of vehicles they have to fix, and that's on top of all the dealers existing inventory.

 

[David Fermani]

Enterprise Holdings to Remove Recalled Toyotas and Pontiac Vibes from Rental Fleet

Vehicles make up about 4 percent of fleet serving

Alamo, Enterprise and National car rental brands

January 27, 2010 (St. Louis, Mo.) – Enterprise Holdings has announced that, effective immediately, it will remove from its North American rental fleet all of the Toyota and Pontiac Vibe vehicles identified for recall and suspension of sales due to potential problems with sticking accelerator pedals. Customers currently renting these vehicles will be placed in alternative vehicles. The affected vehicles represent about 4 percent of the fleet of the Alamo Rent A Car, Enterprise Rent-A-Car and National Car Rental brands, which are owned and operated by Enterprise Holdings.

“The safety of our customers is our number one concern, so we are acting out of an abundance of caution to remove the affected vehicles from our fleet until Toyota has identified a remedy for the issue,” said Matt Darrah, Executive Vice President-North American Operations for Enterprise Holdings.

Darrah added that the Enterprise Holdings brands also are immediately suspending sales of the affected models and will not put new Toyota vehicles into service until the situation is corrected.

“We recognize that these actions will inconvenience a number of our current rental customers and may impact the availability of vehicles in the coming weeks,” Darrah continued. “We are moving as quickly as possible to minimize any disruption to our customers.”​

About Enterprise Holdings

Enterprise Holdings, through its regional subsidiaries, owns and operates more than 1 million cars and trucks, the largest fleet of passenger vehicles in the world today, under the Alamo Rent A Car, Enterprise Rent-A-Car and National Car Rental brands. As North America’s largest and most comprehensive car rental company, Enterprise Holdings also operates a network of more than 8,000 car rental locations in neighborhoods and at airports worldwide, and leads the industry with more than a third of all airport business in the U.S. and Canada.

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

Well according to the actual tech's fixing this issue today it takes about 3 minutes to pull the car in do whatever it is they do pull the car out and get it back on the lot for sale. They went to a green dot, red dot on the windshield system. They run the numbers and every Japanese made toyota automatically gets the green dots (meaning ready and able to sell to the public per toyota) the american made ones get checked to see where exactly that one was made and over half get the green dot right off the bat the other ones go back into the service bays for "recall work" I've been watching it with my own eyes for the last 2 days. It's a bit of an inconvience to the dealership I'd say but it's not some end all be all that the media is making it out to be. oh and priuses and tacoma's are as of now uneffected completely. who knows. maybe this piticuler dealership is full of crap and just wants to move some cars. But no one there seems to be too effected by it. The techs are loving it. Easy work for them

 

[dennn]

This recall is blown way out of proportion by Toyota. What we have seen so far is less than ten cases of deaths caused by this "throttle problems" that this recall is addressing. Stuck throttle can happen to any vehicle. And I don't think this has to do with the lubrication of throttle cables, as the recalled Toyota vehicles run on electric motor throttle valves that do not rely on throttle cables. Toyota calls this system the "Electronic Throttle Control System with Intelligence".



Perhaps the actual throttle pedal has nothing to do with the issues of the recall. A friend of mine brought her 2010 Toyota Camry to me to have a look at the throttle, since the local Toyota stores have denied her an appointment, and would not be able to offer an official inspection until further notice. There's nothing physically to cause the spring driven electronic throttle pedal to get stuck. If anything, my guess would be that the "stuck throttle" issue has to do with the electronics, modules, or the engine management programming that dictates the actuation of the throttle valve. An issue like this may be solved by simply reprogramming the engine computer module.



It is worth noting that Toyota's electronic throttle system has a mind of its own. It could modulate the throttle valve position to enhance fuel economy. The system also has the ability to sharpen throttle responses when it senses that the driver is needing the extra engine output in an emergency. My guess would be that the recent Toyota recall may be related to this electronic throttle system. All it takes is a couple seconds of the throttle system to become irresponsive to cause a disaster.



Toyota is not the only car maker that utilizes this system.

 

[Lenny]

Well according to the actual tech's fixing this issue today it takes about 3 minutes to pull the car in do whatever it is they do pull the car out and get it back on the lot for sale. They went to a green dot, red dot on the windshield system. They run the numbers and every Japanese made toyota automatically gets the green dots (meaning ready and able to sell to the public per toyota) the american made ones get checked to see where exactly that one was made and over half get the green dot right off the bat the other ones go back into the service bays for "recall work" I've been watching it with my own eyes for the last 2 days. It's a bit of an inconvience to the dealership I'd say but it's not some end all be all that the media is making it out to be. oh and priuses and tacoma's are as of now uneffected completely. who knows. maybe this piticuler dealership is full of crap and just wants to move some cars. But no one there seems to be too effected by it. The techs are loving it. Easy work for them

The "fix" the tech is talking about is to insert a shim into the pedal assembly, and that's the "fix" Toyota is trying to get approved for existing Toyota owners, not the existing inventory at the dealers. The existing inventory may possibly be returned to Toyota for a swap of gas pedal assemblies as the replacement parts become available (which will take a long time).



The proposed "fix", as of this evening, has not been approved yet by NHTSA.

 

[Lenny]

This recall is blown way out of proportion by Toyota. What we have seen so far is less than ten cases of deaths caused by this "throttle problems" that this recall is addressing. Stuck throttle can happen to any vehicle. And I don't think this has to do with the lubrication of throttle cables, as the recalled Toyota vehicles run on electric motor throttle valves that do not rely on throttle cables. Toyota calls this system the "Electronic Throttle Control System with Intelligence".



Perhaps the actual throttle pedal has nothing to do with the issues of the recall. A friend of mine brought her 2010 Toyota Camry to me to have a look at the throttle, since the local Toyota stores have denied her an appointment, and would not be able to offer an official inspection until further notice. There's nothing physically to cause the spring driven electronic throttle pedal to get stuck. If anything, my guess would be that the "stuck throttle" issue has to do with the electronics, modules, or the engine management programming that dictates the actuation of the throttle valve. An issue like this may be solved by simply reprogramming the engine computer module.



It is worth noting that Toyota's electronic throttle system has a mind of its own. It could modulate the throttle valve position to enhance fuel economy. The system also has the ability to sharpen throttle responses when it senses that the driver is needing the extra engine output in an emergency. My guess would be that the recent Toyota recall may be related to this electronic throttle system. All it takes is a couple seconds of the throttle system to become irresponsive to cause a disaster.



Toyota is not the only car maker that utilizes this system.

Toyota is the only manufacturer utilizing this system without a brake pedal cutoff for the throttle. Toyota is planning on installing that in the 2011 model year.



And nothing is blown out of proportion. The minute Toyota issued a recall for cars & trucks that included current models, and did not have a fix ready, they were required by law to issue a stop sale order. There may be "only" ten deaths, but they've been having customer complaints since 2003, and quite a few accidents that didn't get the headlines because there weren't any deaths with them.



It should also be noted that since 2001, not only has Toyota racked up more unintended acceleration complaints (with NHTSA) than any other automaker, Toyota racked up more than all the other automakers put together.

 

[Lenny]

Doubt cast on Toyota's decision to blame sudden acceleration on gas pedal defect

The pedal maker denies that its products are at fault. Some independent safety experts also are skeptical of Toyota's explanations. 'We know this recall is a red herring,' one says.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

I never liked the looks of the new Camry - the front end reminds me of a pig snout. I have never been blown away by any of the Toyota cars. I do like their trucks though. If I were going to buy a car in that segment now, I'd get an Accord or the new Malibu. In my opinion, the Malibu looks the best of any American sedan currently made. The Fusion to me just screams "rental fleet vehicle".

 

[Lenny]

I never liked the looks of the new Camry - the front end reminds me of a pig snout. I have never been blown away by any of the Toyota cars. I do like their trucks though. If I were going to buy a car in that segment now, I'd get an Accord or the new Malibu. In my opinion, the Malibu looks the best of any American sedan currently made. The Fusion to me just screams "rental fleet vehicle".

I'm partial to the Fusion, especially the 2010 Fusion, but I like the Malibu as well.

 

[Junebug]

I've had several Toyotas and never had any real issues with them. I know they employ a lot of people here in the good ol USA so you gotta think that problems with the company isn't good for folks here either. They worked hard to get to be #1 and they cut corners, skipped on style, made a bunch of cars that started not to have that quality they use to have - sounds like GM, but I hope they don't go in toilet like GM has.



Right now I have a GTI and I'm happy with it - since I found a local mechanic to do the scheduled maintenance ( a must with any German car) instead of getting raped by the dealer. I'm looking to get a Mustang v6 for my daughter when she gets her license next year, or a F150, I don't know, mpg vs safety...and I could "borrow" it some heh heh! But the 2011 Mustang is NICE!!

 

[Lenny]

I've had several Toyotas and never had any real issues with them. I know they employ a lot of people here in the good ol USA so you gotta think that problems with the company isn't good for folks here either. They worked hard to get to be #1 and they cut corners, skipped on style, made a bunch of cars that started not to have that quality they use to have - sounds like GM, but I hope they don't go in toilet like GM has.



Right now I have a GTI and I'm happy with it - since I found a local mechanic to do the scheduled maintenance ( a must with any German car) instead of getting raped by the dealer. I'm looking to get a Mustang v6 for my daughter when she gets her license next year, or a F150, I don't know, mpg vs safety...and I could "borrow" it some heh heh! But the 2011 Mustang is NICE!!

Well, the 2011 Mustang comes out this spring (I think), and gets a 305 HP V-6, that they expect will get 30 MPG highway. LA Preview: 2011 Ford Mustang V6 makes 305 HP, gets 30 MPG; Autoblog Hell I'd want to borrow it!

 

[Junebug]

Len, here's my Catch 22, I can get a great deal on the 2010 V6 Mustang - pro's - cheaper, less horse power for a new driver, Con's - less mpg, resale will be terrible compared to the new v6 ( I had a 87 S10 Blazer with 2.8 - the next year the 4.3 came out)



But, I think I'll wait and get the 2011 w/new 3.7 v6, better on gas, and the 2011 gets some other upgrades too. My little girl drives very carefully and slow, not like that redneck daddy she has - although I've calmed waaaay down since becoming a dad. You could even call me an old fart in a kid's car!

 

[Lenny]

Len, here's my Catch 22, I can get a great deal on the 2010 V6 Mustang - pro's - cheaper, less horse power for a new driver, Con's - less mpg, resale will be terrible compared to the new v6 ( I had a 87 S10 Blazer with 2.8 - the next year the 4.3 came out)



But, I think I'll wait and get the 2011 w/new 3.7 v6, better on gas, and the 2011 gets some other upgrades too. My little girl drives very carefully and slow, not like that redneck daddy she has - although I've calmed waaaay down since becoming a dad. You could even call me an old fart in a kid's car!

The gas mileage and the fact that 3.7 is a more advanced engine, and the six speed automatic are worth the wait.

 

[percynjpn]

This recall is blown way out of proportion by Toyota. What we have seen so far is less than ten cases of deaths caused by this "throttle problems" that this recall is addressing..

I don't think "less than 10 deaths" is a minor issue, especially to the victim's families. I think the long-term effect on their image is going to be minor, but it will hurt them quite a bit in the short run (but not over here).

 

[Dan]

I am very disappointed in Toyota for not being more forthcoming as to the details. If they don't want to reveal anything fine, how about educating the consumer as to what to do in the event that the accelerator does stick.



The hardest thing for me to swallow was the CHP officer that several people in the car AND time to call 911, but couldn't do anything to stop the car otherwise?