Time for a major change!

Flashtime..correct!



Around the coastal areas I believe people are more concerned with ecology, or seem to be. When I asked my Cleveland, Ohio uncle where the recycling was, he stated, "Recycling? What is that for? There's the trash!" I do not wish to generalize here because that is not true of each person in Browns country, but coastal communities see their beaches close down when it rains due to pollution and that was not the case when I was a kid only 30 yrs. ago.



Some use it too much..."Our products are biodegradable." I used to think that actually meant something, but how many bases and acids are really NOT biod. over time? I think using products that put zero water in the storm drains/water table-creeks-oceans is the way to go here. Not only that, but business wise, I can wash a car and have the glass look better than any cleaner I have ever used in about 15 min. with less labor and equipment! Note: I'm on the coast of CA. and we don't have snow, ice, or rain for that matter! :)



I'm surprised actually with the way in which many Autopians take care of their cars that they would even need a "soap" to wash their cars.



I spoke last year to a Porsche Club at the dealership and the best looking ones were done without soaps. The one I detailed for a show at Trump National only gets detail sprays- nothing else. The paint was flawless.



My guess is that aggressive marketing has many buying more than they need. I am now 39 and am not the same consumer I was 15 yrs. ago. Some guys pay $5 per towel and others pay $1.67 and both will say they get good results.



In the end, what should matter is that as members of the planet, we should be doing what we can to protect and preserve it--just like we do with our cars. How you or I do that will differ, but we can still get the same results IMO and do what is right.



Rob Regan

Auto Detailing Teacher
 
Less said:
Yvan,





So far, what you've posted on this thread is no more information than one could find by reading this site for less than two hours. Everything you've said about ONR has already been said, by many people, many times.



So please put that $50K to some good use and tell us something we don't already know.
Click to expand...



That has to be the dumbest request I have ever heard in my life. A guy spends countless hours and lots of $$$ to test and find and/or develop products that meet his needs and then he is just suppose to share them with you because you asked? I'd give you the finger if it were me.
 
So …

When I debate someone on the “waterlessâ€� or water $mart, I typically request that the debater share the level of experience. If they have not actively engaged in experimentation, and tried at least one or preferably several options, it is just not worth the level of effort. Oen favorite quote is “Do not try to make pigs sing … frustrates you and annoys the pigâ€�. No offense to pigs.



There are some that no matter what evidence is shared, they refuse to believe. For me, a water 4mart model works great. My customers love it, and it allows me to get into places wither traditionally not available to the Amenity (Airports, Malls) or is allowing me and others to quickly replace the traditional wash in places like Class A Office. In December, big class A Office that did extensive “greeningâ€� in 2008, tried to work with the onsite Car Wash & Detailer that paid $250,000 a year & ½ ago to adopt the model. Well, looks like they will have to pry the pressure washer from his hands when his 30 day cancelation notice comes due.



And, personally, based on professional observations and my gut, this model, like it or not, will evolutionize the way Mobile Detailing is done. I think it is more cost effective to enter the industry, and a more cost effective way to achieve compliance when the bucket & hose guy has to go out to buy a wash mat, reclamation system, waste water tank and a dedicate time to properly discharge the waste.



Recently, in the State of Washington, the Department of Ecology took a position on Home Car Washing. At first they had to clarify they were not banning the Home Wash, but that if you wanted to wash your car at home, you had to move it from the driveway / street onto the landscape (grass). A group of us Water $mart guys have been talking. One major supplier lived within 30 minutes, went over and did a demo of his “waterlessâ€� product. Result: If you like it or not, if you want to bucket & hose your car in the State of Washington … pull it on the grass. Or … pick up your bottle of your favorite waterless product and have at it. What’s that you say “It’s really cold hereâ€�, why then move the car from the driveway into the garage, and enjoy your time spent in relative comfort?



Wheels … well, at least I haven’t seen the “hey, what about the off road vehicleâ€�. But wheels are a challenge with this model. Not all, but yes a BMW that has not been taken care of can sometimes take as much time on rims as the whole rest of the car. One company I am working with out of San Diego had some “ecovationâ€� and developed a foam mat to go around a tire so I can get a little “sloppyâ€�, squirt a little more, use brushes, and have the foam barrier catch the drips and run off. (Did same for Eco Engine Detailing, a wash mat to catch the drips, wipe with towel to contain waste). Has helped speed and quality of result. But, for the sake of this debate, what if I concede that rims are more of a challenge than the bucket & hose, that even sometimes quality suffers … hands down the Water $mart solutions win over traditional if you choose to follow best management practices, meet or exceed local codes / ordinances and care about the environment.



If you are a professional, I believe that this model offers the most economical and quality result available, and cannot understand any argument that says I will not carry it, nor ever use it. Just not logical … you are free to debate to the extent you will use it, but not the if. For the DIY, I think they will find it a fixture in the garage. Meguiar’s says that there are 2.8 products per garage in the US. I believe sometime in the future, 1 will be a waterless product.



In my opinion,

-jim
 
Relaited said:
Recently, in the State of Washington, the Department of Ecology took a position on Home Car Washing. At first they had to clarify they were not banning the Home Wash, but that if you wanted to wash your car at home, you had to move it from the driveway / street onto the landscape (grass).
Click to expand...



I've seen various jurisdictions starting to require this, and it makes ZERO sense. They are requiring people to discharge pollutants from washing directly into the soil, rather than to have it go through the engineered storm drain system for treatment before discharge.



It's a matter of idiots at the helm, IMO. Despite my tone, I'm truly in support of taking measures to reduce environmental impacts, but let's be realistic here. Does anyone really believe that car washing is causing any sort of measurable impact on the environment? Speaking for myself, I am one of maybe 5 of 150 homeowners in my neighborhood that even has the ambition to wash their own car. I'm betting rainwater runoff carries more pollutants from cars (through fluids leaked on pavement, etc.) than washing ever could.



It's also funny to think that people use waterless washes to conserve the environment, but then go inside to run their dishwasher, take long showers, irrigate their lawns, etc. Talk about picking on one very minute piece of the puzzle.
 
15951 said:
I've seen various jurisdictions starting to require this, and it makes ZERO sense. They are requiring people to discharge pollutants from washing directly into the soil, rather than to have it go through the engineered storm drain system for treatment before discharge.



It's a matter of idiots at the helm, IMO. Despite my tone, I'm truly in support of taking measures to reduce environmental impacts, but let's be realistic here. Does anyone really believe that car washing is causing any sort of measurable impact on the environment? Speaking for myself, I am one of maybe 5 of 150 homeowners in my neighborhood that even has the ambition to wash their own car. I'm betting rainwater runoff carries more pollutants from cars (through fluids leaked on pavement, etc.) than washing ever could.



It's also funny to think that people use waterless washes to conserve the environment, but then go inside to run their dishwasher, take long showers, irrigate their lawns, etc. Talk about picking on one very minute piece of the puzzle.
Click to expand...



It depends on the sewer systems. Where I live we have combined sewers, which means that the rain from the streets and the poo from your toilet goes to the same line and to the water treatment facility before dumping to the Detroit River. There are a handful of drains in parking lots and streets that drain directly to the river or nearby creek. These are labeled as so.



Now, most communities around the country do not use this style of system. Therefore your toilet and house drains go to the treatment plant and rain run off from the streets go to the waterways.



The reason they tell you to wash it on the grass is because the vegetation acts as a filter for your washes. It's so much better than having it go to the waterways where is will spread at a fast rate.
 
15951 ... for the record. I have a Smart Timer for my irrigation, installed by my local Water Board as a pilot because I am so active in water. Both in conservation and in controlling run off. I was brushing my teeth the other day, got lost in a thought, and my 3.5 year old daughter comes running and and yells “Daddy, save some water for the world�. Proud moment. I post on another forum, if you find it, you will see the topics I champion. I could go on.



I spell water $mart with a $ for a reason. Although I am passionate, and think water is the new oil, and hope in 2 years to be elected to my water board, I am no tree hugger. There us money to be made as an Eco Detailer!



Yes I do believe that Car Washing is a contributor to Urban and Storm Run off. If you do not, then drink the run off, dare you to drink it even if diluted! Or, if you would like to get educated, search for the Pudget Sound Car Wash Study … kills fish.



If you are a professional Detailer, or even if not, go down to your City, ask for the Water Quality person who represents the jurisdiction to the NPDES Permit and share your thoughts with them. If you do, I would like you to come back here and share how your thinking is received.



-jim
 
Superior Fine said:
That has to be the dumbest request I have ever heard in my life. A guy spends countless hours and lots of $$$ to test and find and/or develop products that meet his needs and then he is just suppose to share them with you because you asked? I'd give you the finger if it were me.
Click to expand...



Hold on a second. Let's recap the actual conversation here and see if my request is actually the "dumbest ever"



Yvan says - "I spend tons of money researching this stuff"



Then he says - "Here is what I know about rinseless and waterless washes", but he doesn't say anything that hasnt' been said before.



Since he decided to boast about his R&D budget in the same breath as his "education" about ONR, wouldn't a reasonable person suspect the two thoughts to be related? Maybe it's just me, but his post seemed to imply that the information he was providing was the result of his epic R&D budget. Therefore it seems perfectly reasonable to ask "Tell me something I don't already know".



If I did indeed make the "Dumbest request ever", then that means that Yvan cleverly used this forum to reiterate (for the umpteenth time) how ONR works. Then for some mysteriously egomaniacal and self-indulgent reason, decided to mention his fat R&D wallet. If that's the case, then I concede that I made "the dumbest request ever"



And i'm calling BS on Yvan about his quarter million dollar a year research. Knowing what I know about car detailing, business management, cash flow, accounting, and taxes (Bachelor's in accounting, Masters in Business Management, and 10 years executive experience), I simply don't believe it. The $250K is either a complete lie, or the result of some EXTREMELY creative accounting.



Think about it folks. You could buy a sample (or even full size bottle) of just about every polish, wax, glaze, pad, buffing machine, and cleaner on the market. Then you could buy a brand new car (or three), EVERY YEAR, just to test the stuff on. On top of that, you could pay yourself a decent salary, and STILL not even be close to $250K. Now consider the fact that your business focuses very heavily on environmentally friendly products, and the number of items on your testing agenda get slashed heavily.



Also think about this. The pros out there can attest to the amount of time involved, cost, and expected revenue/profit on doing a car detail. How much more profitable would each job have to be just to break even on that $250K investment over the course of a year?



As I said, Yvan is either lying, or has a VERY good accountant. I *might* believe that the $250K is made up of allocated 'sunk' costs. In other words, if I spend half my time "testing" new products, then I can allocate half of my rent, utilities, salary, insurance, and overhead costs to "Research and Development". But those are really 'sunk' costs, since you have to pay them anyway even if you sat in your shop all day with your thumb up your butt. In other words, I didn't really "spend" that money on R&D, I just allocated it since that is what I spent my time on. If I had spent that time detailing cars, then those costs would be part of my normal job costs.



Or for example, let's say I buy a whole bunch of new products and *give* them to my franchisees to test. Then I suppose I could write the costs of those products off as R&D expenses, but it just means that the profit margin on each job is going to be higher because the materials were free.



If the $250K is just the result of some creative allocations of inherent business costs, then I might believe you Yvan. But if you're telling me that you already have a business with sufficient profit to spend $250K ON TOP of your regular business expenses, I'm calling BS on you.
 
15951



Just for the record, Relaited has to be one of north americas most water concious people. Like the old saying goes, he has forgoten more about the subject than most will learn.



For my part I live in the country with a fairly weak well, so water conservation is a part of everyday life. In our shops we have proven to authorities that our busines model is very water wise, in one city they installed 2 water meters, one for the washroom and kithchen facilities, the other for the shop floor, to there surprise(they gave us 1 year zoning leave, and thought they would come shut us down, the excuse bieng water usage) we use more water in the water closet than the shop floor, and that with a low flow toilet and 6-10 employees.



In my area the concern is not water consumption but waste water management, in particular soaps containing phosphates. When I see pictures of cars covered in foam, that one act creates far more waste phosphates than one ever should. So using waterless wash is very impotant not only for teh water savings, but more for the contamination savings.



Also like Jim stated going green is a cost savings measure as well, greatly reducing labor(for a legaly opperating mobile detailer its a substantial savings), chemical costs, material costs, and providing a marked advantage when it comes to obtailing contracts such as office building s and teh likes, plus its a nice little marketing advantage(marketing strictly on a green platform is waste of time because of all teh false info, but it's a heads up).



Less



Thank you for your concern regarding my finances, but I am quite happy with teh skills or our accountants, and so was teh gouvernament at there last audit.



As a business owner I have always allocated a certian percentage of our gross income to R&D. As I have stated previosly spending that amount was far from a hardship, and for me has proven benificial. I have also mentioned that detailing is not the only spending for our R&D, we have also invested in developing a paint touch up system using waterbased paint, a windshiled repair system(and if you have ever delt with maling molds for proptotypes for plastic parts, and machine shop time for prototypes you are well aware of how fast an invoice can climb). My reasoning s for including the fact that I spend money on R&D were to dispell the eventual calls of, where did you learn that, how do you know ect. I care to point out that you are the one that asked for a dollar figure(a true CPA). To put your mind at ease, the money spent is not only on materilas, but takes into account the wages of my staff that do the trials(though I do participate heavily), the subs that fabricate prototypes, the lab tests, and the rent for the shop we do the R&D in.



Please take the time to review our web site(in french, but you will get the idea), we are Canada's largest automobile reconditioning chain, with over 40 mobile technicians, plus 8 shops employing from 4 to 12 people each(depending on the city). We have also branched out to Northern Africa, and are negotiating to enter the European market. We are not your small loocal detailing shop.



My goal is not to belittle anyone, nor do I think I am better or worse than anyone, we all participate on forums to share and learn form each other. I am fortunate to have a prospurous business that has flourished into a large corperation, and in order to stay ahead of the competition we must do what we can to stay ahead, and that includes R&D.



If you have any firther interogations on my business I invite you to call me or comunicate by PM or e-Mail, it will be my pleasure to speak with you.
 
Relaited said:
If you are a professional Detailer, or even if not, go down to your City, ask for the Water Quality person who represents the jurisdiction to the NPDES Permit and share your thoughts with them. If you do, I would like you to come back here and share how your thinking is received.



-jim
Click to expand...



Good grief. I'm not saying that I turn on all my faucets every evening and flush the toilets every time I walk by them, I just don't freak out about washing my car twice monthly. The last I checked, I don't need a NPDES permit for that.



And by the way, I'm extremely familiar with everything you're talking about, and I think you and I both know you're being ridiculous. The nonpoint source pollution I'm generating through using a car wash soap is no more than what you're doing when you wash your laundry.



Stormwater discharge from many/most developments in my region require pretreatment before discharge. That's better than parking my car in the yard when I wash it, which by the way I have never seen anyone do....anywhere. I think environmental awareness is fantastic, and reasonable measures are great. But get real, the net benefit of using ONR and then washing the filthy washrags is probably barely measurable above using a hose and a decent wash liquid.



Sorry if you disagree...I sip the kool-aid, but I don't gulp it unless I know it's good.
 
whats that saying..."whats important to you is not important to me"



or simply put "to each his own"



some are water conscious and some are not
 
15951, Ok, I can see you are informed on the topic. Can’t see from your profile where you are from, but I double dare you to come here to So California and go tell the surfers you think that discharging the waste from the washing machine is the same as discharging into the Storm Drain (and to the Ocean, and drives the surfers nuts because they can’t surf at the best times, around storms, because of Storm Water Run Off).



Just so I understand you, you are saying that discharge from a car wash into the Storm Drain is the same as taking my towels, where all the waste is captured, and washing them as a professional in a commercial facility prepared to handle the waste, or even as a DIY that uses the home washing machine without getting caught by the wife … where it is discharged into the sanitary sewer, and off to a treatment plant?



I have 2 sets of neighbors, the old timers that do pull the car onto the front yard and wash away, swear, drives me nuts as I am fortunate to live in a nice neighborhood, but not as much as my knuckleheaded neighbors who hire the illegal immigrant to come in my alley and wash without a capture mat! Swear, a couple of each every week.



I think you are inappropriately defining non point source, as I understand it … the laundry is not non point source pollution, as it goes into the controlled environment. Definition from the EPA site

Q: What is nonpoint source pollution?



A: Nonpoint source (NPS) pollution, unlike pollution from industrial and sewage treatment plants, comes from many diffuse sources. NPS pollution is caused by rainfall or snowmelt moving over and through the ground. As the runoff moves, it picks up and carries away natural and human-made pollutants, finally depositing them into lakes, rivers, wetlands, coastal waters, and even our underground sources of drinking water. These pollutants include:

• Excess fertilizers, herbicides, and insecticides from agricultural lands and residential areas;

• Oil, grease, and toxic chemicals from urban runoff and energy production;

• Sediment from improperly managed construction sites, crop and forest lands, and eroding streambanks;

• Salt from irrigation practices and acid drainage from abandoned mines;

• Bacteria and nutrients from livestock, pet wastes, and faulty septicsystems;

Atmospheric deposition and hydromodification are also sources of nonpoint source pollution.



Now, you want to get technical? The City of Calabasas, CA, on the commercial mobile detailers is requiring Permits to operate and have standards that require the operator to utilize a waterless product or wash mat to capture and properly dispose of the waste water (I think it is considered hazardous waste, btu that is a whole other can of really bad worms). The reason they did this is they feared the new NPDES permit would allow the State Water Control board to fine them. The City Attorney’s reasoning is that when the SWCB takes TMDL (Total Daily Maximum Load) readings the Non Source Pollutants would cause above limit findings … and fine the City $10,000 per day. True story.



Lastly, the State of Washington requires you to move the car to the front lawn, except if you use a waterless product … again, true story, as they believe it kills Salmon. Did you ever look for the Pudget Sound Study funded by Brown Bear Car Wash?

-jim
 
Jim,



All great information. It's nice to have a discussion with someone that knows their stuff.



Many states are dealing with the nonpoint source issues you bring up (not being able to surf after storm events due to pollution, etc.). Some cities are retrofitting the stormwater system to include pretreatment in "stormwater parks" and similar systems to clean the water before it's discharged. As you know, this is of more importance in coastal communities and near bodies of freshwater that are used for discharge.



Here's some good info on one in case you're interested: http://epa.gov/region4/water/nps/FL/documents/FL_SebastianPark.pdf



I don't think we disagree, we just live in different places that handle these issues differently. By way of example, detailers doing work in commercial parking lots would drain to on-site detention or exfiltration before pollutants could make their way off-site. Systems are maintained in order to clean these contaminants out as necessary.



In any case, I appreciate the discussion. It's interesting to hear what others are doing to address these issues.
 
I live in a climate where road salt is used and I would never rely on just using ONR or any waterless product. How do you wash the undercarriage or wheel wells properly without a hose? The surface dirt that I can see is what concerns me the least..
 
mark 77. You wash the undercarriage with water, no doubt.



Yvan can respond netter to how water $mart handles road salt.



In both cases water $mart says us the appropriate amount of water in all cases, and most can reduce teh amount used and still acheive results.



Are you saying that you never use ONR nor a "waterless' solutions? That I would take issue with.



-jim
 
15951, yes, nice menatal joust with you, enjoy some intellectual stimulation aside from "hey, don't you scratch a car?".



I live in Region 8, their permit is out for public review, almost done with my comments. LA Ragion out soon, mother of all. You think they will be restrictive on Mobile Detailers, you should be in the contruction industry ... this low impact development stuff is a bear.



Good Luck,



jim
 
ONR is the closest to waterless that I ever would go when I wash the exterior and I use it if the car has only light dirt on it. It's a great product, but not a complete replacement for a hose.
 
Wow, I thought I knew a thing or two about being environmentally responsible. This thread has breathed new insight for me, thank you those contributing to the discussions. :)
 
Mr Rumble,



Thanks, and if you ever come out to the eastern townships fell free to contact me, I am just off hwy 10 at exit 68. That goes for anyone, the shop door is always open(figurativly in these temps)
 
thanks all for contributing - learning loads as well. Its interesting to compare US & Canadian legal and social context with the UK.



In the UK we have PPG13 that applies to businesses but have yet to see anything other than broad hosepipe bans during extreme dry spells in recent summers.



Keep it coming :2thumbs:
 
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