Time for a major change!

R

reparebrise

New member


Repeated form : Best Drying Towel/chamois



One way or definatly reducing marring and swirling is adopting a new wash technique. In 95% of instances you are better of with either a waterless product or ONR. Unless the car has been offroading the technologie in these products protects your paint like no soap could ever do.



In our shops we wash 60% of car waterless, and 35% with ONR, the other 5% we send through a high qualithy tunnel wash with proper water reclaim equipment(yes a tunnel wash opperated by someone who knows what they are doing to adjust and maintain the machinery, and does not skimp on water and soap will never dammage a car).



My personal vehicle(2007 Mustang) has overr 70k on the odometer, gets driven on dirt roads, through raging snow storms, and in every condition Canadian roads can throw at it. The car has never been washed with anything other than water less, has never been polished, and to find swirls you need one heck of a light.



Detailing over the next few years will live a revolution of sorts, with increasing water conservation, run off control, and consumer pressure , existing water smart methods will gain in popularity, and new products and techniques will change the way we detail for the better.



For those of you who are nay sayers(and I know you are out there) you can do a simple test to see what is happening to your paint. o to the hardware store and buy a piece of black plexiglass. Remove the covering on one face. put the piece outside on a dirt surface, and wet it down, allow ambient dust to get it dirty for a week or so(note any scratching when you remove the plastic wrap on it first). Next sepperate the pannel in 3 sections. On one section wash it with a water less product of your choice. On the second section wash 1/2 of yur car with ONR, then using the wash media that has done 1/2 of a car, wash the next section, and dry(we have found the towelpros waffle weave MF to be the best and safest drying media to date). On the last section wash 1/2 your car with the methods you normaly use, and again using the media that has washed 1/2 of your car wash your plexi panel. In repeated testing, and lab work, the bucket and soap(actualy foam pre-soak, mitt, rinse, and dry) method has consistantly induced the most scratching. Both ONR and waterless are about equal, and far superior over the traditional methods. Since you wont believe your eyes, take the panel remove the protective wrap from the other side and repeat the test.



Since Henry Ford started making cars the methods we have used to clean cars have not evolved, in Mr. Fords times water, soap and a bucket were used to wash a car(in some cases kerosene was used as a water less wash as well) and 100+ years later some still do the same thing.



For my Detialing shops I spend more per year in R&D than most people here make, and I have proven many times over that watersmart washing(ONR and waterless) are by far and away safer, faster, and of course much better for our environment. For 2009 it would be nice to see a few Autopians take the high road and at least try to break the wastefull traditional wash techniques. Get rid of those wastefull ,and environmentaly dangerous foam guns, sell thos pressure washers, plant a tree in your buckets, and give your sheep skin mitt a well deserved retirment For those who resist change, saying the old way is the best, do you still watch B&W TV, do you heat your leftovers in the oven instead of the Microwave, does your telephone have buttons or a dial. We know that when you want you can follow progress(you have a computer) so please make 209 the year you discover a new way to take care of your car. Imagine no more wet hands, dry feet, no soap running down into the sewer drain, your children being able to swim at the beach in 10 years, and your car being in the best condition it has ever been.



Enjoy
 
Since you've done so much R&D would you mind explaining exactly what makes waterless and ONR washes safer?



For the record, I'm a big fan of ONR but my findings are the exact opposite of yours. I get minimal marring with ONR, but it's certainly more than I get with a traditional wash using a slick shampoo and a foam gun.
 
FB



Great question, The simple answer is come to the IDA educationday at MTE, it's part of the discussion that 3 other detailers and myself are presenting during the ECO Detailing part of the education day.



The long answer for those not attending MTE



Unlike a traditional soap which cotains only emulsifiers and surfactants, water less also contains polymers. These polymers are designed to encapsulate the emulsified dirt, and protect the paint surface from it. In addition to that many of the leading products captialise on magnetic attraction. Your paint is negativly charged, and so is the water less wash, and if you remember back to school to negatives repulse, so now your dirt is being forced away from the paint magneticly. The next key to the puzzle is the MF towel(Note: a good towel washed without fabric softener is important) it is positivly charged, so it is attracting the dirt. Another advantage of most water less wash products(and to slightly lesser effect ONR) is that a by product of there containing polymer is that they leave behind a layer of protection not unlike that of a spray wax. A vehicle that is washed on a regular basis witha water less product now has continual protection, and the old and the new act together to further protect the surface from marring when cleaned again.



A few important things we have learned with water less washing.



First a quality fresh towel is required.

Second, unlike amny internet videos, the initial wiping off of the product must be done methodicly, and with little pressure, remember you are picking up the dirt not driving into the paint. the internet videos show the user non chalantly wiping in all directions. We use linear motins, slight overlap, and work side to side working from the top of the panel to the bottom. For every panel we use a fresh surface. By folding your towels in 2 than again in 3 you obtian 12 fresh surfaces per towel. Each surface represents a panel(door, fender 1/2 roof....)

Third allow the product to flash before buffing

Forth if you are working on a very hot surface, wait if you can, if not reduce the size of your section to make sure the product is not dry before you wipe it off.



I washed my car this afternoon, and here is a close up of the paint around the lettering on the door(a great place for trapped dirt, around the edges. You will notice the wonderfull factory ford orange peel, and you will also notice the absence of scratching.



garage315.jpg


Heatgain



I use a formula we developed and made in house, It is not for public sale, reserved only for my franchisees. That said there are many good products on the market, anda quick search of the net will yield some results. In fact many brands are the same product with colorants and scents added in, and in general all work well. The reson we made our own is that I am very lazy, and wanted a product with good glide(low resistance), but as far as the cleaning aspect goes all that I have tested(over 30) are acceptable to good. One word of caution, some are sold as MLM products, while the product is good the distribution model may leave a little to be desired.
 
Thanks. Very informative.

Trying to talk my wife into driving with me to Clearwater for the mobile tech thing.
 
Gary,



If you can make the IDA's education day on Thursday, Yvan and I will be presenting, and this will be the topic ... Water $mart & Eco Detaling then we are around the next 2 days at the MTE for in depth dicsussions ... I hope with a cold beer!



Yvan is an excellent champion, and he has the best technical knowledge.



Cheers,



-jim
 
Jim



Thank you for the kind words. In fact our session is from 10:30am to Noon. Presenting with us is the discussion moderator, Anthony Flammia from Gia's Detailing, Speaking as well will be Stuart Williams CEO of Prontowash USA, and Prentice St Clair from Detail in Progress. Our topic of choice is eco detailing and it promises to be an enlightening experiance for some.



Attached is the link to the information and scedule of the Education day. The IDA will also be presenting seminars starting at 9am with Advanced detialing techniques and technologis. This will be followed by the ECO detailing section mentioned above.



In the afternoon from 1:30 to 3:15 is the topic Detail marketing in tough times. The IDA education day ends with Detialing tools of the trade.



While haunting the halls of the expo is important, over the years many have come away saying that the best part of MTE was the education day. For all attending make sure to spend some time advancing your education.

Thursday, January 15th



The IDA will also have a booth on the expo floor so please stop in and say hello, many detailers and suppliers will be on rotating shifts in the IDA booth.
 
I wish I could attend, unfortunately work interferes. It sounds like the discussions you'll be holding will be invaluable information.



I tried using ONR for the first time yesterday on my very dusty car and was disappointed. I prepared myself with the two bucket method at a mixture of 1oz ONR to 2 gallons of my towns hardest water, a grout sponge for cleaning and a standard MF for drying. I then rinsed the panel twice with the grout sponge (side to side motion), before wiping dry with the standard MF. Cleaning was not stellar and some marring was introduced, which I believe to be because the grout sponge did not release the contaminants into the rinse bucket.



I'm going to try again using the same two bucket method but instead multiple standard MF's for the rinsing, and a WW MF for the drying portion; dabbing dry instead of wiping.
 
Gonz0



ONR has a learning curve, so don't give up yet. In our shops we use ONR for the rough cars(heavy salt and salt deposits) and it does a great job. I agree with you about the grout sponge, there are better alterrnatives. What we have adopted in our shops is the red Ulti Mit from Lake Country. MF also works well.



Just as a point of reference we do not use 2 buckets, we mix up 3 gallons and with a grit guard, and a mesh pad in the bottom we can easily do 4-6 cars per bucket. I have found that with certain wash mediums the 2 bucket method actually reduces the efficency of the wash, plus its another waste of water because of a desire to do better that is not needed. Just like adding too much ONR to the water reduces its efficency, the old addage rings true, Follow the directions on the bottle. Yes the water will look like something from the bottom of a swamp, but unlike a tradtional wash soap the ONR keeps large particles in the botom of the bucket away from your paint.
 
Yvan,



This all sounds good on the surface. I just have a few questions



You say that you spend more on R&D each year than most people make. I don't know what kind of economy you live in, but here in New England (which isn't too far from Quebec), the median household income is somewhere between $40k and $50K.



If you're spending $50K+ on just R&D, could you please elaborate on some of the results and findings? So far, what you've posted on this thread is no more information than one could find by reading this site for less than two hours. Everything you've said about ONR has already been said, by many people, many times.



So please put that $50K to some good use and tell us something we don't already know.



Also - in the interest of full disclosure - what is your relationship (if any) with Optimum Polymer Technologies? Do you recieve any commission, sponsorship, or royalties from the manufacturers and/or distributors of ONR?
 
gonz0 said:
I wish I could attend, unfortunately work interferes. It sounds like the discussions you'll be holding will be invaluable information.



I tried using ONR for the first time yesterday on my very dusty car and was disappointed. I prepared myself with the two bucket method at a mixture of 1oz ONR to 2 gallons of my towns hardest water, a grout sponge for cleaning and a standard MF for drying. I then rinsed the panel twice with the grout sponge (side to side motion), before wiping dry with the standard MF. Cleaning was not stellar and some marring was introduced, which I believe to be because the grout sponge did not release the contaminants into the rinse bucket.



I'm going to try again using the same two bucket method but instead multiple standard MF's for the rinsing, and a WW MF for the drying portion; dabbing dry instead of wiping.
Click to expand...



this might help... nrwsguide
 
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Thanks for the question. My R&D budget for 2008 was in excess of $100,000 (as a point of referrence 2008 was our lowest budget, in previous years we often went past the $250,000 mark. With our budget we have developed our own line of products to be used exclusivly by our franchisees. Also it has been used to develop techniques of work, proceedures, and some other services that we offer. When we are developing a product, or testing a product, a compound for example. The product will recive a chemical analyisis,(we have found that some companies have neglected to take into account secondary reactions in there mixtures that in turn create another chemical, that can cause harm to out technicians, or the environment) it will be teated in controlled conditions with a multitude of pads and styles of tools(rotary, DA, hand) Testing of a compound can take us up to 3 months, we do not stop at just application, we also track the test panel to follow the evolution of it. As a result of our testing we have chosen to use certain products, and chosen to develope others to better fit our needs. We have our own APC, Water less wash, Interior cleaner/protectant, and 1 step polish and wax. For us the expense was warrented becasue of the time and cost saving these products accomplish. Certian items we go with an off the shelf product because we see no need for improvement.



I have used probably most of the waxes, polishes, and compounds available in north america, europe and asia, many are the same products just re-labled possibly a color or scent added. If I can be of help in a product choice feel free to contact me. That said there is no best of anything, just different products adapted to different realities. Sometimes the least expensive product greatly outperforms the Boutique product, but because of stellar marketing, and peer pressure(yes it exists here too, not just the schoolyard) a product is percieved to be better. The needs of a professional detailer are very differnet than those of a person doing detailing for personal satisfaction. many pro detailers that I coach and communicate with on a regular basis refer to certain rituals(like the 2 bucket method) as Autopian, meaning they are way over the needs of the product or situation, but someone doing this as a hobby has the luxury of taking the time or resources to do so.



I Agree with you that when one takes the time to do a search everything that possibly could be said about ONR probably has, and as you stated I am not offering anything new about ONR, and never had the intention to. I offer ONR as a solution to a problem that is a reality, water is a finite resource, and water consumption is not the only consideration, waste is possibly an even larger one. When I see pictures of a car covered in foam, I cringe, all those suds will eventually make there way into public ataerways, and if you take the time to do a litle search on the effects of Phosphates(contained in car wash soaps for example) on our waterways, you may reconsider your need to see your car covered in foam. many gouvernaments and loby groups put the weight on the sholders of detailers, but in any given city I am pretty sure there are many more home car washes done per day than those done by detailers.



Concerning Optimum, or any other product I may reccomned, I am a satisfied customer, and occaisionaly participate in testing of new products. I do not sell products, nor recieve any compensation from any supplier(I pay just like everyone else).
 
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but that picture you show is practically worthless, as it doesn't show any sort of harsh light directed at the paint surface.



You state that washing in the traditional way will cause swirling, whereas the ONR wash will not. However, you then go on to explain how ridiculously careful you are when you use the ONR. I guarantee you that ANY wash with a viable car wash soap will yield the same results if you use the same methods.



Also, you state that the polymers prevent swirling/marring. How do you know you're not just seeing the results of light fillers? You concede that the ONR is leaving protection...perhaps a wipedown with isopropyl alcohol after washing would provide a clearer picture of what's going on.



I have no doubt that you can wash with ONR without introducing swirls. However, I've been washing the "old fashioned way" for 18 years without incident. On my latest vehicle, I am unable to find ANY marring under sunlight after weekly hose washes. It's all about how you do it.



Now if you're mainly touting the environmental benefits of ONR, then agreed - it uses much less water than a conventional wash. Regardless, whenever someone starts telling me how great their ONR or waterless wash is, I take a look at their wheel wells and the barrels of their rims, and the story tells itself. The vehicle on the front page of your website proves my point. Unless you're willing to get pretty nasty using ONR, it's much easier to clean the "dirty" parts of a car like wheels, etc. with more traditional methods. As long as that hose is out, it's easier to me to just do the entire car that way.
 
There are very few instances where ONR is inferior to traditional soap, APCs, pressure washers etc. On very dirty and unmaintained vehicles it is faster and more thorough to use traditional methods. For properly maintained vehicles (bi-weekly or monthly), ONR is faster and just as effective. As a professional, the benefits of ONR are substantial. I usually do not have to carry a pressure washer or APC sprayer. I can also wash in my customer's garages. This is especially important in the winter here in NOVA, where it can get a bit cold and windy. Not to mention the green aspects of the product. I agree that some are resistant to adopting new technology, especially in detailing. That is fine; everyone is entitled to use what they want. I do think it is unfair though to doubt and criticize the poster for having a vision.
 
15951



Thanks for your reply. When the sun returns I will gladly take a pic for you in the harshest light I have, sun over snow, and you will see the same result. For your reference in our shop we have flourocents , metal hylide, and halogen, and we see much more in our shop than we do in any other light(including direct sunlight).



Secindly as far as using OBNR I am probably the least carefull user on here, I use only 1 bucket and wash 4-6 cars with the same bucket, so you may have mistaken me for someone else.For the waterless wash what I described may seem long but in reality it's much faster and thorogh than wet washes.



To follow up on you questions the product we use does not fill in scratches, I know this because I make it, and secondly we get the same reaction from potential customers, so I regularly wipe off sections with wax remover to expose the underlying surface, and there is no difference..



You are more than correct in your statement that it's all in how you do it, and like anything there is no wrong or right way to do things.



In every discussion when speaking of watersmart techniques the wheel wells are brought into question(in a sort of "gotcha" sentiment) , and we have very effective ways of dealing with those, the best being steam. But ONR with brushes works quite well too. That said the average customer(not an Autopian) could care less about the wheel wells. Where we are located we deal not only with dirt, but with salt, sand and slush on and under the cars. For this we use a staem pressure washer that gives us 330 degree steam at 250 psi and 1/2 GPMand we use this on the rocker pannels, rear bumper, and wheel wells, but for the rest of the car we still use ONR or Water less, for 3 reasons, first is speed, second is profit, and third is the environment. I am above all abusiness owner responsable for keeping my company alive which supports over 50 families. Going down a greener path has the added benifit of bringing in more "green" (Brown in Canada).



Once again I would like to take the time to repeat the there is no wrong or right way. We all live different circumsatnaces, and realities, adn my posting is just in the hope of helping someone possibly realise a more effective way for them to do things. Remember that the earth you live on is just loaned to you by your children and grandchildren, so do your best to give back to them in better shape than when your parents gave it back to you.
 
I agree with 15951, the pictures that Yvan has posted don't tell the whole story. I would like to see some before, during, and after pics with some intense lighting aimed directly at the paint. These pics, (and others that Yvan has posted in various ONR threads), don't show the true condition of the paint before & after ONR washing.



I dont' want to start another ONR war here. But I'm convinced that a swirl-free wash is virtually impossible, by any method. Because of the fact that each car is different, and the wide threshold for human error, there is no such thing as a "perfect wash". Anyone who says that they wash cars and *NEVER* introduce a defect is lying. It's an inevitable part of life. When there is dirt on paint, and you apply pressure or agitation, there is ALWAYS going to be the risk of marring.



You can reduce this risk with better, slower, and more careful techniques. You can also lower it by using better wash soaps with more lubrications. In my opinion, (and probably that of most people), ONR provides LESS lubricity than regular soap and has a higher margin for error.



I would bet anything that if we took a poll right now and asked people to choose between a traditional wash, or an ONR wash the traditional wash would win by a wide margin. Especially if we stipulate that the only factor for making your decision is wash quality and you can ignore factors like cost, time, water usage, and weather.



Also, Yvan. You contradict yourself many times, and I'm finding your arguments to be less and less credible.



$250K for Research & Development on car detailing products? Come on dude! You're going to have to provide some proof, or at least some anecdotal evidence to support that claim.



Your words:

I have used probably most of the waxes, polishes, and compounds available in north america, europe and asia,



If that's the case, then make up your mind and pick one. Why continue to drop a quarter mil on your "testing". Especially since you claim to already have your own recipe for most detailing products.



Also, you push ONR pretty heavily, which is fine. We all have our favorite products. But you also mention that you don't personally use it (because you are "lazy" and want something with more lubricity) but instead use something that you developed yourself. If your stuff is so great, then why not sell it to the public and try to make back some of your $250K.
 
I would bet anything that if we took a poll right now and asked people to choose between a traditional wash, or an ONR wash the traditional wash would win by a wide margin. Especially if we stipulate that the only factor for making your decision is wash quality and you can ignore factors like cost, time, water usage, and weather.



The problem with this logic is that traditional washing methods are going to keep changing in many cities. Some do not even allow mobile detailers anymore. Some do not allow ANY washing in your own driveway..I have a customer in Westlake Village that can not use a hose due to his neighborhood association. Maybe more people would choose traditional vs. ONR, but ignoring those facts is not an option in many areas as stated. If you took a poll years ago about buffing vs. clay to remove surface contaminants, most would have chosen the buffer. Times change, but sometimes traditional methods take longer. A poll shows current beliefs or ideals, but doesn't make one way more correct than another.



What we should do is pool our $$$ and send these products to an independent R and D facility for testing. Same with microfiber- have a test run where they apply the same pressure to a panel and see the results. Big surprise I bet!!



Having known Yvan and a few others that are using ONR and his product, I am satisfied with what they do. He runs a business while many here detail for a hobby so maybe the two avenues of thought are so diverse that they can't become congruent in beliefs and ideals of washing/detailing??



I was not successful for a long time because I ran my detail operation from a "detailers" point of view, not from a business owner's.



I'm still learning, but after trying new methods over the last year and evaluating cost, time, labor, and the final product, I have changed dramatically. Years ago I blasted any waterless product, but that was from my own ignorance of not understanding modern paints and products.



What would be fun would be for David or someone to post "archives" of discussions from years ago that would make us all laugh. Perhaps, this will be true of this topic years from now.



It's 65 deg. today and sunny! Great day to be outside and enjoying family and friends!



Rob Regan
 
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Thanks again for the continuiing debate.



To answer a few of your interogations here goes.



You are very correct in saying that any wash method has the potential to induce marring, it all comes down to the person doing the wash. As I have stated before this thread is not to put down any particular method, or add value to another, I posted it to bring forward that there are different ways of doing things, taht are more respectfull of our environment, and before doing a certain opperation think what the concequesces of your actions are, and are you using the best method for the situation.



I believe Rob answered your poll question with brio! Just like anything in life things evolve and realities adjust to the current situation. 15 years ago you would have polled a group of auto enthusasts about Porche having a 4x4, or Cadilac having a pick up truck you would have been laughed out of the room.



For my R&D budget, I see no where where I have contradicted myself. My business model is such that I can afford, and I find it pertinent to spend such sums of money. I fell no need to justify my spending, the people concerned (my franchisees) are very satified with our R&D programm and it's results. Just so we are clear the whole sum is not spent on detailing supplies, but to advance every aspect of our offerings.



The reason I do not make up my mind on a product and stick with it for the rest of my life is that I run a business. It's my phylosiphy that a business that does not move forward, is moving backwards, standing still is not an option. I am always looking for a better mouse trap, and as long as companies keep improving there products I will keep validating my choices. I only make 4 products, I do not make a complete line of detailing products, and have no intention to.



I do not feel that I push ONR, yes we use it when the situation warrents it's use. I would invite you to re-read my postings nowhere did I state that ONR lack lubricity, nor did I say I do not use ONR(infact in the original post I gave the percentage of cars we do woth the product, 35%). What I found was lacking in glide(not to be confused with lubricity, different animals) was water less wash products. This was the priimary reason for developing mine, someone washing cars all day tires of a product that requires effort to glide the towel across the paint. While most products on the market are designed to be used in a consumer setting, I designed mine with the professional in mind, the person using it all day. Once again the product is not as important as the result, and for the results I must also take into consideration my employees, profit, time used, and consumer perception.



I do not sell my products retail for a few reasons. First and formost I am a franchiser, and for the same reason you can't go to the grocery store and purchase Mc, Donalds meat patties to cook at home, you can't buy my products, they have been designed to give my franchisee's exclusive product for there use. The money I invest in R&D is made before I spend it so there is no need to make it back, and when I say invest I do mean invest, as the ROI for R&D is tangable, and important for my business model.



As Rob so eloquently stated the business of detailing, and the hobby of detailing are different activities, and in some aspect may never converge. For myself I am in the business of detailing, and every aspect of the business needs to be constantly reviewed and updated to stay ahead of the competition.



I thank you again for the continuing debate, and remember that ther is no right or wrong way of doing detailing, just ways that best fit your ideals and circumstance.
 
Seeing as "going green" is more fashionable today than ever, eco-friendly detailing

should, at least, sound better to customers...
 
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