This is why you measure paint!

Accumulator said:
Same here, but I suspect we`re in the minority.
Click to expand...

Hermano,
Perhaps because I/we once had work that required us to measure things to the ten/hundred/ thousandths of an inch, we just naturally go that way???
I like that I can see if I just removed 1/2 of a micron, I just want to know again, just how - little - I remove...
DanF
 
Stokdgs said:
... The things they do say and try to pull over on people is just appalling... I very easily reasoned with them and in the end they had not ground left to stand on.. It was almost funny..

They are so predictable, rude, and insulting..
Click to expand...

Yes, at some point it`s tempting to just amuse oneself with them ;)
 
Stokdgs said:
Perhaps because I/we once had work that required us to measure things to the ten/hundred/ thousandths of an inch, we just naturally go that way???
I like that I can see if I just removed 1/2 of a micron, I just want to know again, just how - little - I remove...
DanF
Click to expand...

I don`t really have that kind of background...guess I like I microns better because *I* find it easier to work with "big, simple numbers" when holding a scad of `em in my head and calculating on the fly. With Mils it`s all about little changes in whatever-decimal place and ignoring the first few numbers.

SOME people who work in Mils (not anybody here I bet!) are working in very coarse measurements and just hogging off clear as if it were OK. When shopping for ex-LE vehicles, it was common for a seller to say he "only took off a mil or so", and wonder why I immediately asked if they had one that they hadn`t touched yet. Telling a proud guy that his "expertly wetsanded and buffed to perfection" car is a no-sale *because* of (the reduced thickness of) that flawlessly smooth pretty paint doesn`t go over too well either.
 
Mike Phillips, Jason Rose, and myself were discussing this thread yesterday afternoon. The conclusion was saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. They keep figuring out new technologies to lay paint thinner and thinner. Sell 10 million cars in the U.S. saving a few dollars here and there on each car ends up making billions for manufacturers. They can get away easily with thinner paint, because most people will never know. Home builders like doing the same stuff. They cheap out on stuff behind the walls, and then put eye candy inside. Things like granite countertops, tile, fireplace to entice. Then they buy the cheapest windows, hvac, paint, minimum code on everything else.

Obviously paint thickness gauges are going to become even more important than they already have been. Time will tell if this turns out to be as bad or worse than the peeling paint of the 80`s, and 90`s.
 
So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
 
Coleroad said:
.... saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. ....
Click to expand...

Last plane I was involved in was the Airbus A380. Airbus changed the formula and applications methods of the polymide-epoxy primer used on the plane (and really screwed up the processing houses) and that little change saved somewhere in the area of 200 pounds over the weight of the entire plane (they did a tone of other stuff with sealants as well and really shaved weight on the plane, something like 1600Kg total compared to the pre-existing tech at the time)
That 200 pounds on the exterior of the plane, plus the same changes in the primer on the structure and landing gears added up to a total primer weight savings of close to 600 pounds.... 2 extra passengers worth of weight

M
 
Coleroad said:
Mike Phillips, Jason Rose, and myself were discussing this thread yesterday afternoon. The conclusion was saving even just a few dollars on each and every car is huge money overall for the manufacturers. They keep figuring out new technologies to lay paint thinner and thinner. Sell 10 million cars in the U.S. saving a few dollars here and there on each car ends up making billions for manufacturers. They can get away easily with thinner paint, because most people will never know. Home builders like doing the same stuff. They cheap out on stuff behind the walls, and then put eye candy inside. Things like granite countertops, tile, fireplace to entice. Then they buy the cheapest windows, hvac, paint, minimum code on everything else.

Obviously paint thickness gauges are going to become even more important than they already have been. Time will tell if this turns out to be as bad or worse than the peeling paint of the 80`s, and 90`s.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your post, Coleroad !

I believe that the "time" will be sooner when all those vehicles come in with peeling clearcoat because of dealership grinding it all off to start, then people who hit it again without measuring at all, etc...
The auto manufacturers will hide behind the dealerships who will of course, do everything to get out of any responsibility, etc., for as long as possible, hoping that the (former) customer will give up and just go away...

Of course, then, they will have to deal with those nasty class action lawsuits...

It is amazing that as things change, people , Accounting, etc., find more ways to make money and apparently, never take into account the recipients experiences because of this...

And yes, I am sure the coating people are already coming up with new marketing to fit in just nicely with all this.. :) I will I am sure, be hearing all about it when I go to SEMA the end of October.. :)

Speaking of Homebuilders -- the absolute goldmine for them was when they switched over to PEX plastic plumbing... A huge goldmine..

Never mind, it all starts leaking around year 14 or so..... "Oh, but it is so much better than copper".... :) But copper goes perhaps twice that 14 years or more and probably it`s still ok..

How many people who have copper plumbing are saying today - " all these fittings throughout my house in the ceiling are now leaking, costing me thousands of dollars to fix".....

How many people who have that dreaded PEX crap in their ceilings are saying those words? Tens of thousands... :)
Dan F
 
Mike lambert said:
So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
Click to expand...

I would say coat thin paint. The coating should cut down on scratches and marring serving as a sacrificial barrier instead of the thin paint taking the first hit. I don’t think many of the dealerships in my area ever use a buffer on a car, new or used.
 
According to a PPG rep, the first 10 microns have the most UV protection. And around 50% of UV protection is gone in 5 years. Doesnt leave a lot to work with.
 
Mike lambert said:
So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
Click to expand...

At the very least a yearly application of paint protection and although I am only strting to learn about Cermaic coatings I`d say that may be the best option.

also reading through this thread I noticed a post about buying a car and salesman just blowing it off and in fact that is what they do,,,they want to sell you a car and another in 3 or 4 years when that ones is dead so to speak.

I constantly shake my head when our sales dept tells some poor customer that clear doesn`t need to be maintained because it`s there to protect the paint underneath,,,most salesman are backstabbing,egotistical buffoons that don`t know Jack about maintaining a car.
 
3Dog said:
According to a PPG rep, the first 10 microns have the most UV protection. And around 50% of UV protection is gone in 5 years. Doesnt leave a lot to work with.
Click to expand...
I`d want to know the details of that "gone in five years" so I could extrapolate real-world expectations from it.
 
Going back to Mazda and paint thickness. Mazda`s have on average the thinnest paint systems out of all Japanese manufacturers. They attribute that to better panel stamping quality but somehow i don`t buy it, however in general the industry is moving to thinner systems (either due to better quality of panels, paint systems or cost cutting measures).

Cheers

Sent from my MI MAX using Tapatalk
 
I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?
 
I assume that coating a vehicle`s clear coat/paint ADDS some thickness to the overall exterior surface finish thickness (OESFT) that can be measured quantitatively (IE, physically) with a paint thickness gauge. Why do I ask?
I asked Mike Lambert, What IS an acceptable paint thickness for a new vehicle manufactured today? It should be a KNOWN and published vehicle manufacturer`s specification (IE, value) that can be measured as part of the dealership pre-delivery inspection OR be verified by the customer or an independent inspection service before a new-vehicle buyer takes delivery. But I guess that will never happen.
I only ask because how many customer`s REALLY care about this. I cleaned my wife`s-side nephew`s brand-new Ford F-250 Super Duty truck last year and discovered a small imperfection in the front chrome bumper that was the result of a manufacturing error in the plating process (how it got through inspection at the factory and then at the dealership it beyond me!!). When I pointed it out to him, he took it back to dealership and had them replace the bumper. He told me later of the extraordinary amount of cost for such a warranty claim, but as I explained, when you pay that much money for a new vehicle, it should be perfect and it would rust and look like crap if it was not taken care of, decreasing the value of your truck at some point in time.

Are paint thicknesses (or lack thereof) a ticking time bomb in new vehicle appearance down the road after the new car warranty is expired? Sounds like it is.
Can it be mitigated with a good, quality coating? Don`t know because time will tell (witness GM water-based clear-coating failures in the late 80`s and early 90`s and resulting consumer litigation). Sounds like a manufacturer-to-have-dealership-applied-coatings "opportunity"(IE scam) to me.
Or at least an "opportunity" for professional vehicle detailers to not only take care of dealership-installed swirls, AND add paint protection with a quality coating to less-than-acceptable manufacturer`s applied surface finishes.
 
Mike lambert said:
So , I’m flattered you guy’s looked at my post! Now to throw a wrench in the discussion. Is it better to coat paint this thin, or how many times can you use an all in one, or polish and wax? Keep in mind that if the dealership buffs on it what do you do then?
Click to expand...

Oh Mike. You have some good posts, man!

This thread has me thinking, "Do I even want to work on newer cars?" Right now, not really!

Mike lambert said:
I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?
Click to expand...

Might be time to change our school of thought on this. But, where do we go from here? It would be nice to use one of those very expensive PTGs with the multi layer readings that can tell us how much clear vs how much base coat, etc. But even knowing the thickness, with TOTAL readings in the 2.5 mils, how much clear do we actually have to work with?

Lonnie said:
I assume that coating a vehicle`s clear coat/paint ADDS some thickness to the overall exterior surface finish thickness (OESFT) that can be measured quantitatively (IE, physically) with a paint thickness gauge.
Click to expand...

I`ve seen that it does. One guy took readings before any correction. Wet sanded, and polished to look amazing. Then 2 coats of Modesta (sp?) and readings were taken after. I don`t remember the actual numbers, but adding the coating did in fact add mils/microns back.

Lonnie said:
Are paint thicknesses (or lack thereof) a ticking time bomb in new vehicle appearance down the road after the new car warranty is expired? Sounds like it is.
Click to expand...

I worry about this. I did a guy`s repainted Porsche and we discussed this. My Yaris was already going through clear coat failure (peeling), and he was thinking his newer Toyota pick-up would eventually suffer a similar fate. A couple of years later, he started seeing the paint fade (his is white) and before things got worse, he had it wrapped.

I`m spending way more time on my wife`s 2014 Kia Sportage to avoid similar fate to hers. So far, seems like it`s going good.
 
Mike lambert said:
I agree, but I’ve had a Honda CRZ in here with 2.5 mils! I think it’s getting to be the norm, so maybe it’s time to change our school of thought?
Click to expand...

Holy Cow, Mike !! That is 63.5 Microns!!!!! I hate having to work on anything less than 100 microns...
Dan F
 
The hybrids from Asia have been the worst, what scares me is the fixes on the assembly line, coupled with dealership fixes and pre, the n the free washes !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top