The Official: Hardness of Clear thread

SpoiledMan said:
It's like asking if a Z06 is fast. Going from my Integra GS-R, yes it is. Coming from a top fuel dragster it's pretty slow. See how that works? It's going to be different strokes for different folks that have different experiences.
Click to expand...





Yes, people will have different opinions on the thickness of each car's paint. But, data collection of this sort is done by mass. If most people say a BMW 3 series in Black 1995 is hard paint, that is the usual case scenario.



Chances are the data submitted would be much more accurate than if no data was submitted.



Your example is fair but not relative to the thickness of paint. It's a question a relativism:



Dragster is fastest, faster than z06 and integra

z06 is faster than integra

intergra is fast.





So if you had a database of how fast cars are, you answer wouldnt be subjective, it would be scaling:



"Is a Z06 is fast?"



Yes, not as fast as a Dragster but faster than an integra



Dragster is 5, z06 is 4, integra is 3. other slower cars are 2 and 1.



This is a much more accurate answer.
 
SpoiledMan said:
But if you've never driven the dragster......
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doesnt matter. as long as you know the scale ratio. if a dragster is 5 (100%) and a z06 is 4 (80%), then in the scale of 1-5, a dragster is 1 (20%) faster than a z06.



All you need is knowledge of one point on the scale and then you can calculate all other valves relative to that number.
 
Well, I'm not going to argue with you on this. This is an open forum and you're free to do what you want. I don't think you're understanding the big picture in that what you think is hard may be on the soft side to me and rock hard to someone else. Someone above posted that a '93 Integra is hard. Not by a long shot would that paint be hard unless it's a repaint. They all came from Japan so you can't use the point of origin as being an issue.



This isn't a new subject at all and it just plain doesn't work. Show up to do the job and be ready for whatever is thrown at you and you will be successful in the detailing biz.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Well, I'm not going to argue with you on this. This is an open forum and you're free to do what you want. I don't think you're understanding the big picture in that what you think is hard may be on the soft side to me and rock hard to someone else. Someone above posted that a '93 Integra is hard. Not by a long shot would that paint be hard unless it's a repaint. They all came from Japan so you can't use the point of origin as being an issue.



This isn't a new subject at all and it just plain doesn't work. Show up to do the job and be ready for whatever is thrown at you and you will be successful in the detailing biz.
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Indeed.

If this discussion is no longer of interest to your goodself, then likewise, this is a public forum, so you are free to no longer contribute. However, as shown below, that would be a shame.



I do completely understand that the thickness of paint is at the moment subjective. Your example of what I think is hard maybe soft to you being a case in point.



No scale, no system, no reference point. How do I get a reference point? Look for my car in the database. Say an 2005 white integra is 2 out of 10. Tomorrow I detail a 2003 Subura Legacy black. To me its rock hard.



I submit Subaru Legacy 2003 black paint_thickness 10. And there it stays. A fair indication that this cars paint in plus 8 on my car.



However, over time, I work on a BMW which is even harder. So, Subura is worng. I reassess and give it 8, the Beamer gets 10. Added to that will be the opinions of others. So, the Subura might not even get entered as 10 cause enough people say, "No way, the BMW 3 seres white is harder than that. change it to 8".



And so on.







The Integra post was mine. Yes, it was a repaint, yet I was told by the customer that it was a Honda factory job, which does happen here. I suspected it wasnt and that the original paint was soft, much like the 94 Prelude I did last week.



So, exception number 1 becomes;



<maker="Honda" fall_back="" id="Honda">

<model id="Integra">

<range id="GSi" fall_back="base">

<m_date name="year" value="93"/>







<detail name="paint_thickness" value="3"/>

<detail name="color" value="black"/>

</m_date >



<m_date name="year" value="94"/>

<detail name="paint_thickness" value="2"/>

<detail name="color" value="white"/>

</m_date >



</range>

</model>

</maker>



It just seems such a waste of knowledge. So many detailers here have such in-depth knowledge on such a wide range of cars. With an established scale system, that information could be turned into a supplementary tools to compliment the "Show up to do the job and be ready for whatever is thrown at you and you will be successful in the detailing biz" philosophy.
 
The problem with a scale is that each car (even same color/year/model) is different.



I have worked on two 07 BMW 335's with Jet Black (usually very soft paint). One was the normal soft, hard to finish out paint and the other was beyond rock hard and required 4-5 compounding passes to even remove swirls. Totoland Mach did a 5 series recentely with the same rock hard Jet Black paint, though in his experience as well, Jet Black is very soft.



I think the idea is fun to kick around but fails in the real world because of perception and the variences from one car to another (with in the same year, color, model range).



However I think a scaled system is okay, as long as it is clear that the scale is GENERAL.



IME, from hardest to least (just a few specific models/colors)



10+ 1986 Lamborghini Countach, black

10 2006 Lamborghini Gallardo, orange metallic

09 2007 BMW Jet Black 335 (rare case)

08+ Most modern Audi/VW paints

08 Most C5/C6 Corvette's/Most Mercedes Benz/Ferrari Enzo

07 Most metallic BMW's

06 Modern Ferrari Paint (F430/599)

05 GM Truck Paint

04 Ford Truck Paint/Previous Ferrari paint

03 Single stage Ferrari paint/modern Porsche paint/Jaguar paint

02 Range Rover/Bentley/Rolls Royce Paint/Most BMW Jet Black paint

01 Bentely Azure/Arnage Paint (hand built)/Nissan G Coupe/Sedan Paint
 
So could we get this to work? I think so.



Also I noticed something about one of the posts about hardness being subjective. I think it also matters on what polish/pad you used also. For instance, I could say that a honda a worked on was pretty hard paint because I used Menzerna SIP with a Green Pad but then someone would think to themselves that maybe it ISN'T that hard based on their experience because they've worked with more aggressive combo's before?



Does that make more sense to dial it what's considered hard?
 
TH0001 said:
However I think a scaled system is okay, as long as it is clear that the scale is GENERAL.
Click to expand...



I agree with you 110%. This was my intent in the first place but people got off on the tangent of what's really hard and trying to be way to subjective to the matter and argue points for it to really happen.
 
If as much for my own enjoyment and increase in knowledge, I have produced an XML DB for the posts on this thread and from one or two others on this site.





http://www.geocities.com/chubloodychu/autopia.xml



Easiest way to view is to download the XML file and open in firefox or IE





<?xml version="1.0"?>

<autopia>

<maker id="Audi">



<model id="most">

<range id="most">

<year value="2000_2008">

<paint color="most">

<paint_thickness value="8"/>

</paint>

</year>

</range>

</model>

<model id="TT">

<range id="Coupe">

<year value="2008">

<paint color="black">

<paint_thickness value="1"/>

</paint>

</year>

</range>

</model>

</maker>







</autopia>
 
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