the good of PTFE, aka, Teflon

YoSteve

New member
I know many of you, everybody in fact ;) does not care much about PTFE or Teflon or it's benefits it can have in say, car wax or quick detailer or whatever.



I'm doing some searching on waterborne dispersions at work (currently we use PTFE in our coatings to give it lubricity).



Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to melt Teflon or any other lubricant for it to work. Infact, if you chose to oxidize the teflon, it would essentially burn and lose all of it's lubricant properties. So that beg's the question, why would anyone want baked on teflon on their car. The answer is, they wouldn't. Teflon would have to exist in it's molecular stable state, remaining on the car and kept there. After that, it's the polymers job (or whatever binder is in the system) to keep it there. The fact that Teflon has such a high temperature resistance is the very reason why it can be used in this situation.



There are even more lubricants that DuPont carries (the makers of Teflon) that one up PTFE. Krytox, for example, not only provide librication, but also prevents rust (100 hours salt spray on steel panels). This is amazing in that a simple lubricant, just applied to the surface of a metal can keep it from rusting and wearing.



Reverting back to PTFE, it's already applied as an additive to many applications. For instance, it's the dry lubricant for many of the nuts and bolts in your car. PTFE resins are used as lubricants for belts and gears.



From a wax standpoint, PTFE not only adds lubricity but also adds water repellency (which we all like) and temperature stability.



But all in all, there is lubricants in everything we use on our cars, whether it be oil based or resin based or silicone based. Canauba is a lubricant, isn't it? It burns at a way lower temperature than PTFE would ever.





Now I have no idea how effective Teflon is as an additive to any wax or QD or whatever. But I do know that not only is it an important component already, but it has the ability to provide lubrication and durability, just by the properties it has.



Would you not feel better, if the molecular dirt on your wash mitt ran into a few molecules of PTFE before running into your paint?



Just something to think about next time you knock it as an ingredient to any of the many chemicals we use on our cars.
 
According to Dupont, the makers of Teflon®, it is not a viable wax ingredient. Since they make Teflon®, I'll take them at their word and stay away from waxes that claim Teflon® as a property.



Maybe Mike Phillips or Forest will chime in on why Meguiars and Mothers do not have any products that use Teflon®.
 
Scottwax said:
According to Dupont, the makers of Teflon®, it is not a viable wax ingredient. Since they make Teflon®, I'll take them at their word and stay away from waxes that claim Teflon® as a property.



Bingo.



As far as application goes, even DuPont says Teflon needs to be heated to 680 degrees for the sintering process begin. With out this process, teflon offers no protective properties what so ever.
 
Maybe I missed it in the Dupont statement, but didn't they say that it does nothing to add durability to a wax? The key word is durability. It may help with things like slickness and things not sticking to it as easily. Not saying this is so, just a thought.



Also, how about Dupont Zonyl? Will that be better?
 
Many manufacturers use the public concept or history of the usage of a product to glorify its existence in their product. A good example is Teflon. The general public perceive this to be a hard durable substance that is extremely slick. See the word "Telfon" on a wax protectant product and this entrenched concept is automatically rewarded to this protectant. Yes, manufactures do not deny its actual function in their product is only as a great lubricant ( ease of application) and water repellant but thrive on Telfon's past history from other usages to be intrepreted has increased durability subliminally.

No different than food vendors shouting on their labels that a product that never had cholesterol ( most fruits and vegetables ) is "Cholesterol-free and is heart safe". Failing to point out ( actually denoted in very small ingredient listing print) that this product may be full of other natural occuring non-animal saturated cardiovascularly dangerous fats. :nixweiss
 


As far as application goes, even DuPont says Teflon needs to be heated to 680 degrees for the sintering process begin. With out this process, teflon offers no protective properties what so ever.




Not sure that applies here. I remember years ago in the carpet mills, they applied Teflon Carpet Protector as the last step in the manufacturing process (competitive to ScotchGard), after all of the heating processes (dying in boiling water, steaming, hot-melt backing). Since a car finish is more of a plastic (like carpet) than steel, perhaps the following line from the DuPont site applies:



"With an application of DuPont Teflon® Advanced carpet protector, you have the assurance your carpet is protected with a premium quality product."



This quote is for home use, at room temperature.
 
I might get flammed for this, but what the heck...



bottles_contact_mid_top.jpg




A simple shower spray will last 10 showers, and 140 flushes with the toiler bowl cleaner, according to the FAQ. Hmmm...Teflon must be working in this case... Do not use on cookware, because "it's not the same material" on cookware.



http://www.cloroxbathroomcleaners.com/faq.html
 
It's also a topical protectant, and it's NOT bonded/fused to the surface. It's the same reason after you shampoo the carpets; the Teflon/Scotchguard looses its effectiveness with each shampooing until it's totally gone. For it to actually be fused to the surface (which is the only way you maximize the function of Teflon itself) it must be sintered to the surface.
 
"YoSteve"



Great info, thanks for doing / shareing the research.



Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/



justadumbarchitect
 
Scottwax said:




Maybe Mike Phillips or Forest will chime in on why Meguiars and Mothers do not have any products that use Teflon®.



We found no benefit to it other than the marketing hype. And sorry, but we're no that kind of company.



To each his own, though.
 
forrest said:
We found no benefit to it other than the marketing hype. And sorry, but we're no that kind of company.



That is what I thought and one of the things I've admired about Mothers and Meguiars...not getting caught up in the Teflon® bandwagon.
 
SL, lemme give you an example



The teflon in a saturn wheelbolt is embedded into the paint as collodial PTFE. The PTFE is collodial because otherwise it would flocculate (clump together) and not provide a good dispersion within the paint. That paint however is not baked at 680° not even half that. We don't want the PTFE to burn. Once it burns, it looses it's properties. It's an additive that makes the paint slick. It helps control the amount of torque it takes to tighten wheel nuts (in this case).



If you look at the MSDS of Teflon, you can read it's working temperature. After that it degrades.
 
YoSteve said:
SL, lemme give you an example



The teflon in a saturn wheelbolt is embedded into the paint as collodial PTFE. The PTFE is collodial because otherwise it would flocculate (clump together) and not provide a good dispersion within the paint. That paint however is not baked at 680° not even half that. We don't want the PTFE to burn. Once it burns, it looses it's properties. It's an additive that makes the paint slick. It helps control the amount of torque it takes to tighten wheel nuts (in this case).



If you look at the MSDS of Teflon, you can read it's working temperature. After that it degrades.



Watch that language! :nono There might be kids present. :scared Boy, feels like I back in college. :bow Now I have to find an opportunity to use "flocculate". :D
 
So those kids at the mall aren't gathering, they're flocculating?



There oughtta be a law.....



Seriously, though, there are other ingredients which can do a better job at a lower cost. The "T" word has great recognition for Joe-Average consumer, though.. It's probably worth a dollar at retail to the price point.
 
I talked with a 25 year field rep for DuPont at the San Diego Trolley Station who said you coudn't pay him enough money to put anything teflon on his paint. If you want long term effects, go back to late 70's early 80's and look at what happened to GM paint jobs when they thought you could kill 2 birds with 1 stone by adding teflon to their paint. Those paint jobs when exposed to any long term outdoor exposure cracked like jigsaw puzzles. Ever noticed the differences in the damage on rubber and plastics when the consumer used teflon based dressings? I've seen it so many times now, that when I see the tell-tell signs, I ask the consumer to pull his Finish 2000 out of the trunk. Just my two cents worth. Have a good day to all.



Mark G.
 
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