Technique vs. Product - just how important is product really?

porta said:
Menzerna CeramiClear PO106FF Polish 32 oz $49.95 - Optimum Car Polish 32 oz. $19.99



= $29,96



So $30 is not worth to use on a product who many swears is a far superior product then OP?
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OP= $15.99 and alot of sites have it on sale and you can get it for $12.99



OHC= $19.99 also alot of sites have it on sale from time to time and you can get it for $15.99



With a rotary and these 2 products there isnt much you cant handle.





Danase's prices for them at the moment:

Polishes, Swirl Removers, Compounds and Glazes



You can get the whole line right now for $49.99......



106ff is always $49.95 for 32oz



So really OP is way more economical.





You can swear up and down 106 is superior, but no one can actually prove it.
 
Coupe said:
.....



106ff is always $49.95 for 32oz



So really OP is way more economical.





You can swear up and down 106 is superior, but no one can actually prove it.
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I paid ~$120 or so for a gallon of 106ff.



Are you speaking from experience after using both products? I am.
 
I was just using the acutal prices from Optimumcarcare.com and pakshak.com



I can swear about it beacuse I actualy have used both OP and PO106FF...and IMHO PO106FF is much better. But PO106FF is maybee not better for you but you can´tell that.



$49.99 for the whole line is a very good price.
 
Dosent really matter if i have, i wont spend $50 on 32oz of polish. At this point i dont see any reason to buy it. No one can actually prove its superior, until then its just another "fad" or "in thing" to me.



I need products that work, work easily and are economical. The optimum line fits that bill like a glove.



If someone can find me a website where i can get 106 for $30 or less then hell yeah i will buy it and give it a try.
 
Coupe said:
Totoland Mach is a good example, he primarily uses megs and 3M, most of those products are relatively cheap. He has some of the best C&B threads of anyone on this site, yet his products are basic and cheaply had. IIRC the most expensive he uses is 3M ultrafina se and iirc he just started using it.



I just dont buy into the whole 106ff is so great stuff. I highly doubt anyone would be able to discern the difference between a finish that was finished with 106ff or OP for example.
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Coupe: thanks for the compliment. I gotta say in the year that I have been reconditioning BMW's (as opposed to detailing them), I have learned TONS! I was a product "junkie"... had shelves of stuff because I mistakenly thought they were "the" answer.



Then the BMW dealer taught me paint cutting, wet sanding, and proper use of compounds. That was/is the foundation of perfecting paint. I keep trying some different products from time to time, but always come back to the 3M or Meguiar's products. We've both learned some new techniques. For instance, introduced ONR to the shop and found it's a great product for washing between compounding and polishing. I don't have to take the car off the lift and it's quick and scratch free.



I also have a complete set of Menzerna products and will definitely say the 106FF works like a charm on Mercedes paints. I've tried it on some of the Bimmers and it does "ok" but I have the shop products that perform on an equal basis. My reconditioning goal is to remove scratches and have the paint as close to "as new" as possible. I'm still a klutz at chip filling, but I'm learning more each time I do it.



On-site or customer car detailing is a different ball game. Unlike reconditioning where you don't know who will buy the car and it has to be super clean (including engine and trunk), client detailing involves you and the customer. If you meet/exceed their expectations, you are rewarded with a happy customer and a good reference.



Well, this is an excellent thread and I never knock products. Most of today's stuff is pretty good. It's the process that's very important.



Toto
 
Totoland Mach said:
Coupe: thanks for the compliment. I gotta say in the year that I have been reconditioning BMW's (as opposed to detailing them), I have learned TONS! I was a product "junkie"... had shelves of stuff because I mistakenly thought they were "the" answer.



Then the BMW dealer taught me paint cutting, wet sanding, and proper use of compounds. That was/is the foundation of perfecting paint. I keep trying some different products from time to time, but always come back to the 3M or Meguiar's products. We've both learned some new techniques. For instance, introduced ONR to the shop and found it's a great product for washing between compounding and polishing. I don't have to take the car off the lift and it's quick and scratch free.



I also have a complete set of Menzerna products and will definitely say the 106FF works like a charm on Mercedes paints. I've tried it on some of the Bimmers and it does "ok" but I have the shop products that perform on an equal basis. My reconditioning goal is to remove scratches and have the paint as close to "as new" as possible. I'm still a klutz at chip filling, but I'm learning more each time I do it.



On-site or customer car detailing is a different ball game. Unlike reconditioning where you don't know who will buy the car and it has to be super clean (including engine and trunk), client detailing involves you and the customer. If you meet/exceed their expectations, you are rewarded with a happy customer and a good reference.



Well, this is an excellent thread and I never knock products. Most of today's stuff is pretty good. It's the process that's very important.



Toto
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I always look forward to your threads! I wish you did more!



I dont want anyone thinking im bashing 106ff, im not, i just cant justify the cost.
 
I have been using Menzerna polishes for some time too, moved to them from Meguiars polishes and was delighted with the finish that they produced, even the heavier abrasives finishing down very well, but reflecting on the move between products I think what impressed me more at the time was the ease of use of the products. Yes, the finished down very sharply to a great finish, but they did so very easily... At least, when the ambient conditions allowed them too, as on several occasions both myself and other detailers have experienced issues with the polishes in certain conditions where the flash on first pass, cake and dont break down at all - a problem solved by many by adding some cleaner wax to the polish. The wax lubricants in Menzerna clearly reacting to certain conditions...



Faced with this, I spent some time going back to Meguiars, and some other polish ranges such as Optimum and Farecla, but primarily Meguiars, in search of a polish that would reliably work in all conditions... I spent much time working with Meguiars #80-series (#84, #83 and #80 - haven't spent much time with #85 yet) as I wanted the reliability but only if I could get the Menzerna finish which at the time I viewed as being the pinnacle of machine polish finishes, and ultimately therefore the pinnacle of paint detailing. With work on technique, I found myself able to replicate the finishes I could get from Menzerna PO85RD with Meguiars #80 Speed Glaze on a selection of paint finishes, soft and hard. I say selection, as I obviously have not been able to achieve this on all finishes as I have not had access to all finished to try. This is what has prompted this thread from me at the end of the day, as honing my technique with a product has appeared to me to be what is important to get to the best finish you can achieve... Obviously a quality product is important too, but it seems to me to be less important than ultimately learning a product and how to use it.



As such, on the up and coming detailing days in the UK that I am attending, I plan to do a side by side of a few finishing polishes using the methods I honed to use each one to the best of *my* abilities (it is likely that other will have different methods and with some polishes may achieve better results than I, whereas with other polishes not achieve the results I can...) just to see if there are any real differences not just in my eyes, but many people's eyes... Its my experiment for the next few months. Such is the beauty of detailing meets, and meeting up with fellow detailers as well as it allows us all to see a range of methods and techniques to get the best from products.



Just some more of my thoughts on the matter here... When I first used 106FF after using #80, I did think that is was the better finishing polish. 85RD seemed to be the pinnacle, but I feel personally that honing my techniques has brought #80 up to a level with these polishes from Menzerna, and that they are not really in my view better finishing polishes in the achievable results (on a selection of paint types of course), but perhaps they are better in their ease of use when they are not suffering from ambient condition problems.
 
Ive been saying that pretty much all along, i can garantee that i can get the same finish with op or megs 80 series as anyone else can do with menz.
 
Wow - what Dave said! And in that same line of thought, it is probably technique that has caused many of us to be dissappointed with the results of a compound/polish more so than the polish - IF it was the right choice for the given problem.
 
It's interesting how we all have different experiences. I can't make #80 finish down clean on super soft paint (black e92s, or some astons, for example), but with 106ff/8rd no problem. I do get the issue where 106/8rd sometimes act funny in certain conditions, though.
 
Picus said:
It's interesting how we all have different experiences....
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Yeah, I keep that in mind and I don't do so much doubting/challenging/etc. any more. I know how things have worked out for *me* and, at least with people here that I've "known" for a while, if their results are different I just chalk it up to the old :nixweiss "YMMV" and believe that they're being honest about things.



And yeah, I do bet that a lot of the differences boil down to technique, but that's cool, we don't all have to do the same thing with the same stuff. As long as we get the results we're after...
 
Picus said:
It's interesting how we all have different experiences. I can't make #80 finish down clean on super soft paint (black e92s, or some astons, for example), but with 106ff/8rd no problem. I do get the issue where 106/8rd sometimes act funny in certain conditions, though.
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The first time I worked on one of those Stupid Softâ„¢ Bimmers I went through pretty much every finishing polish I had in my bag. The Menzerna polishes were the *only* ones that would do the trick. I had used #80 for a while and am still very familiar with it but it just wouldn't cut it at that time.
 
Honda is the softest finish I've so far worked with, its pretty butter soft, and I've not personally had issue with #80's finishing abilities on that, using a Meguiars W9006 finishing pad. I haven't yet worked on an E92 however, and alas I dont think I will get the same opportunity that you have had as reports are suggesting that the British spec E92s seem to have hard paint... I would love to personally put #80 to the test on a super soft finish like the E92s you have worked on in America though.
 
Those e92's you're hearing about with hard paint, are they metallic? AFAIK, we get the same e92s (all produced at the same plant). The metallic colors I've dealt with, including my own, are rock hard. The flats, however, are very, very soft. Keep your eyes out for a flat black e92, it might just have that soft paint you're after.



Actually, sort of off topic; but it is interesting to me at least that my metallic grey e92 has some of the hardest paint I've ever encountered, but all the jet black, crimson red, and alipine white e92s I've detailed have been incredibly soft.
 
Picus said:
Those e92's you're hearing about with hard paint, are they metallic? AFAIK, we get the same e92s (all produced at the same plant). The metallic colors I've dealt with, including my own, are rock hard. The flats, however, are very, very soft. Keep your eyes out for a flat black e92, it might just have that soft paint you're after.



Actually, sort of off topic; but it is interesting to me at least that my metallic grey e92 has some of the hardest paint I've ever encountered, but all the jet black, crimson red, and alipine white e92s I've detailed have been incredibly soft.
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I have experienced the same also. The metallics are very rock hard...like kevlar. I think it is even harder than the vettes.
 
David Fermani said:
I'm not doubting anyone's ability here, so please don't take this personal. This statement could be added to the list of myths/misnomers/misconceptions out there. Isn't that why alot of infomercials always have *so called professionals* campaigning their products claiming their's is the best?
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funny! I know what you mean, but they get paid, and I am just here to help and offer my advice. I am a true diehard perfection maniac. I test new stuff every week or atleast try to. I love correction!



My girlfriend and I will be in bed and I will wake up at 3 in the morning for a drink and then she will come down and can here"zziiiiinnnng". She looks out in the garage and there I am with rotary in hand:waxing: She gets so mad, but I just love testing products and comparing panels to each other for hours... and I really mean hours:help:



I am not here to steer anyone in the wrong direction. I have a very strong eye and know how to look deep into the paint.
 
I do have some of the new 3M compounds/ultrafina. I purchased 3 different products and they were 32oz. and paid around $120 total. 3M is not cheap anymore like they used to be. I do like most of there compounds, but they can not be worked forever like Menz., and you need a lot more product. But they do work great! The ultrafina is great for blacks and even the soft blacks. It also can be worked for a long time like 106. It's just not as strong as 106. Like I said before, I am a little leary of the Cancer warning on the bottle of ultrafina along with all the other bad stuff in it. All the good 3M stuff is in the UK like 80349.



I still can say menz. will still finish off cleaner/faster/ and give an extreme crisp sharpness where no other polish can touch. It also finishes off 100% hologram and trail free with ease, even at 2000 rpm via rotary.
 
Picus said:
Those e92's you're hearing about with hard paint, are they metallic? AFAIK, we get the same e92s (all produced at the same plant). The metallic colors I've dealt with, including my own, are rock hard. The flats, however, are very, very soft. Keep your eyes out for a flat black e92, it might just have that soft paint you're after.



Actually, sort of off topic; but it is interesting to me at least that my metallic grey e92 has some of the hardest paint I've ever encountered, but all the jet black, crimson red, and alipine white e92s I've detailed have been incredibly soft.
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Yes, metallics - I'll keep a look out for a flat coloured one as if anything, it will be a good test for my rotary work again. :)
 
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