Technique vs. Product - just how important is product really?

I

imported_Dave KG

New member
The varied talk of polishes on detailing forums has got me thinking a lot recently about products and there comparative qualities... And I'm pretty much coming to the conclusion that as far as polishes go, there are a great many out there more than capable of delivering superb results *if* the technique for using that particular polish is spot on *and* in the cases of some polishes (Menzerna) the ambient conditions are correct... I have posted this for discussion on another forum too, as I am very interested to hear people's views on this subject, so I'm posting it here too.



The previously much raved about in the UK, PO85RD3.02 Intensive Polish is a superb polish, on its day, of that there is no doubt... But then, ultimately (for me anyway), so is Meguiars #83 which appears to have fallen out of fashion across continents in the world of detailing. Different working style (slightly), but I'd be happy to say that as far as finishes are concerned, #83 could match 85RD3.02 providing you hit the technique for use spot on... Now in the UK, many discussion are swinging round to the 3M polishes, which are also excellent I find in my so far limited use of them - but ultimately are they, to the unaided eye, going to finish down any better than the Menzerna range on their day *if* the users of the polishes have hones a technique that suits the polish (and naturally the paint, as this differs too) right down to a tee? In the USA, I can see Menzerna starting to become more popular, but are they really any better in the right hand than the Optimum range in the right hands? As some products become more and more "fashionable" to the detailing community, does that make the resulting finish for them ultimately better than Menzerna/Meguiars/Farecla/Optimum... this list could go on? This is not a dig at any any polish brand in particular, but what I'm trying to emphasise, in perhaps not the best way, is that IMVHO its far far more important to have a spot on technique adapted to the tools (polishes) you are using to get the ultimate finish.



On a very very fine detail, some polishes are perhaps better than others in the way they finish and the way in which they cut (and obviously there are differences in the way a light polish cuts to an abrasive compound in what they will remove)... But ultimately, can our eyes unaided resolve the differences in finish between properly worked #83 and properly worked IP for example... or perhaps verging a little more extreme, properly worked G3 and properly worked #83...?



While I'm not saying that a quality polish is not important, what I'm opening up for discussion is just how important is the polish you are using in comparison to the technique you develop to use it? I'm coming more and more round to the opinion, as I hone techniques to work with a variety of different polishes, that on the rotary at least it really is all about the technique and a lot less about the choice of polish that is sometimes implied. If you tune your technique to get the best from a polish, you will achieve superb results - use that technique with a different polish and the results wont be so good - but that doesn't mean that the second polish is a poor polish, it just requires being adapted to.



I open this up to a discussion, as I'm interested on people's views on this as its something I've been thinking about for some time. But right now, I will be varying, honing and tuning my techniques rather than searching through loads and loads of different polishes in the search of my ultimate machine polishing finish... I am also worried that, at times, some polishes can be labelled as "poor" or "bad" simply because they have a slightly steeper/different learning curve to get the best out of them - they are harder to learn perhaps, but uiltiately the finish achievable is still excellent.
 
Dave, I think you bring up a very interesting and valid point. I don't have the extensive experience that you or some of the other pros have but with any product there is a learning curve. Some products are extremely easy to use right out of the box so to say while others take a little experimentation. I think for many of the enthusiasts (and maybe pros) initial ease of use is important as you can get good results and build your confidence quickly. Once enough experience is gained with a product its user is able to extract every little bit of potential out of it.



Basically it comes down to, "if it works (for you) use it". However, in an Autopian environment we will always want to try new products/techniques/etc. It is human nature to have a "the grass is always greener on the other side" mentality.
 
When I started here at Autopia, a couple years before you, I used to hear a lot of "process > product", and I think that's still the underlying truth, although most of the talk here now seems to be about product.



Another adage about a craftsman being able to do great work with crappy tools, while a bumbler can't do good work even with the best tools, may also apply. Meaning that someone who understands paint and polishing may be able to get great results regardless of the polish, while someone who doesn't won't get results regardless of the polish.



Having seen your work, I think you already know the answer to your question, as you definitely fall into the former category.
 
Quality work does, indeed, come from having ones technique dialed into the requirements of their specific product and surface conditions.



As a long time user of Meguiar's and 3M products, I will compare my results to those of anyone who says such products won't work on a particular surface or in particular conditions. With a range of experience and knowing how to adjust technique, I can make my products work where others can not.



Conversely, given someone else's products that are new to me, I might be harder pressed to get the results I know I can get from mine. Why? Lack of experience in using the product-NOT from lack of technique in general



Each product does have its nuances and various ranges of correction. While this does separate each manufacturers lines, it doesn't mean that some are "good" and others are "bad".



Since joining this and a few other forums, I've begun to work with products new to me. I no longer do this type of work as part of my profession, so I am afforded more time to experiment.



Most of the products I've tried are due to rave reviews, but some are products that I was hoping would fill a void in part of my process. It's a challenge to learn something new and my hope is to find a product that covers a wider range of defects or finishes much nicer than another.



None of the products I've tried are so convincing that I have thrown away my current lines. In some ways, that is disappointing, but it affords opportunity to keep experimenting. There is no holy grail of products that renders all others obsolete, just as there is no one superior vehicle for all categories and price ranges.
 
[Note: steeper learning curves mean greater learning over shorter time (time, being potentially infinite, is the horizontal/"x axis in all such graphs I've seen). Sounds counter-intuitive, but that's how statisticians do it IME. So steeper = quicker/easier. Sorry to be so pedantic :o ]



While I think it'd be silly to claim that the process isn't the most important thing (you can botch up a job with any product), I do find some products to be *infinitely* easier to use than others. In some cases it's my familiarity with the product, but in other cases the product itself seems virtually foolproof.



When a product has a nice, steep learning curve, a beginner has fewer variables to control and is IMO more likely to get good results right away. And even an expert can appreciate having, perhaps, a greater margin for error.



Unless there's an overwhelming need to (properly) use a specific product, I just don't subscribe to spending a lot of time/effort "mastering" something. I don't do it, and I don't recommend that others do it either.



But then I suppose that, well, different people are different. Some people find product "a" easy to use and others say it's hard and that they prefer product "b" instead. Some people actually enjoy doing this stuff and have fun experimenting and learning, while others just want to get the job done as quickly and easily as possible so they can get on with other things.
 
As a returning detailing hobbyist, I would like to weigh in on this subject. I came to this forum to learn about new products and techniques. I was literally stunned by the number of products as well as the religious affiliation. I read through the posts and gleaned which were the better products to try. I have subsequently purchased several lines and have experiemented with them on family and friends cars. Luckily, I was careful and patient and they turned out just fine. (phew!) I have been using a PC but also seriously wanting to graduate to a rotary for speed of use.



Coming from the old Meguiars school, I purchased their professional line first. I have since purchased Optimum, Poorboy's and looking into CG and as well as a few others. Given its just a hobby, I enjoy experimenting. I have not tried Menzerna as of yet but a colleague at work uses the line on his Mercedes. Admitedly, in my very limited experience as a hobbyist, I have found that proper technique is absolutely paramount along with competent products, of course. Each product has its 'way', for lack of another term, and once found, the results have been spectacular.



I believe that proper technique with quality products is the key to success. Quality products used the wrong way - and boy am I still learning this - will result in less-than-anticipated results. Reading this forum and listening to pros has been invaluable.
 
I rate "product" to be of high importance in that if you use the wrong product, you'll get poor results no matter what the technique.



Is #83 better or worse than IP? Maybe, depending on what you need and/or want in a particular situation.
 
One of the guys on this forum that I respect the most (no name ok) once told me that when you find a product that just feels right, stick with it, see how it works under different conditions, vary the technique, pad choice, tools, etc. After that you will eliminate the product variable from your work and just concentrate on pads and technique. I think this was exactly what Optimum had in mind with their OHC, OC and OP. I did try them, and they worked fine, but for my own personal style - I didn't like them as good as the Malco products I tried. When I first got into detailing, I wanted to try everything out there and see what was "best", now, older and with less $ burning a hole in my pocket, I'm taking that advice and sticking to one line and introduce other stuff as time/$ allows.
 
Dave KG said:
I find in my so far limited use of them - but ultimately are they, to the unaided eye, going to finish down any better than the Menzerna range on their day *if* the users of the polishes have hones a technique that suits the polish (and naturally the paint, as this differs too) right down to a tee? In the USA, I can see Menzerna starting to become more popular, but are they really any better in the right hand than the Optimum range in the right hands? As some products become more and more "fashionable" to the detailing community, does that make the resulting finish for them ultimately better than Menzerna/Meguiars/Farecla/Optimum... this list could go on? This is not a dig at any any polish brand in particular, but what I'm trying to emphasise, in perhaps not the best way, is that IMVHO its far far more important to have a spot on technique adapted to the tools (polishes) you are using to get the ultimate finish.
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Setec Astronomy said:
When I started here at Autopia, a couple years before you, I used to hear a lot of "process > product", and I think that's still the underlying truth, although most of the talk here now seems to be about product.

Another adage about a craftsman being able to do great work with crappy tools, while a bumbler can't do good work even with the best tools, may also apply. Meaning that someone who understands paint and polishing may be able to get great results regardless of the polish, while someone who doesn't won't get results regardless of the polish.
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June Bug said:
One of the guys on this forum that I respect the most (no name ok) once told me that when you find a product that just feels right, stick with it, see how it works under different conditions, vary the technique, pad choice, tools, etc. After that you will eliminate the product variable from your work and just concentrate on pads and technique.
Click to expand...



Great thread Dave. These 3 quotes say a lot & are basically my exact thoughts in which I personally stand for in respect to professional detailing. I don’t have the time or really the need anymore to try out different products and figure out the whole learning curve for each one and how it may or may not blend with others. I’ve been using the same product line since 1990 and have mastered each product’s characteristics in regards to paint correction/general cleaning. I’m to the point now where most of the time I can quickly look at a finish/condition and know immediately what product & pad combo to use without 2nd guessing. It doesn’t matter what product you use as long as the end result makes you, your employees, your customers & your pocket book happy and satisfied.
 
David Fermani said:
... I don’t have the time or really the need anymore to try out different products and figure out the whole learning curve for each one and how it may or may not blend with others. I’ve been using the same product line since 1990 ...
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And then the VOC regs come along and you gotta stockpile those old favorites lest you start all over with more modern stuff ;)





Sorry...that's still a sore spot with me :o
 
Accumulator said:
And then the VOC regs come along and you gotta stockpile those old favorites lest you start all over with more modern stuff ;)





Sorry...that's still a sore spot with me :o
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Almost the entire lineup of products *I* use is already VOC compliant. I haven't really noticed much of a difference after they updated the formula either. :usa
 
David Fermani said:
Almost the entire lineup of products *I* use is already VOC compliant. I haven't really noticed much of a difference after they updated the formula either..
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That's cool, you're lucky in that regard.



And yeah, some reformulated products are working the same for me too.
 
A friend that sells used cars and runs a bodyshop - sends me cars to detail occasionally, he is a 100% 3M man. I asked which products he used and he went over a few. The thing that bothered me was the silica in the 3M compounds. That stuff can't be good for ya. I wonder if it's in the new stuff? Anyway, I'll stick with what I have.
 
JuneBug said:
A friend that sells used cars and runs a bodyshop - sends me cars to detail occasionally, he is a 100% 3M man. I asked which products he used and he went over a few. The thing that bothered me was the silica in the 3M compounds. That stuff can't be good for ya. I wonder if it's in the new stuff? Anyway, I'll stick with what I have.
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You would be very shocked to see what's in some of these compounds and polishes. Some of the chemicals in them are not good for you at all. I read 3m's ultrafina's bottle yesterday and now I am leary of using it.
 
Great thread Dave and I agree with you exactly.



What it really comes down to if you have proper technique for the right product that you also have the right product technique for the right machine technique, then you will have one perfect finish.



The proper way of testing any product is to use it on a whole car. When testing only on panels it is not a proper way of actually testing product wise. Some compounds/polishes actually will work great on the first 2 panels until the third, then it get loaded with polish dust and will need to be hosed out, or sometimes the lubes if not broken down correct will overload the pad and skip, spit, clump, or get hot. So I think technique is a tad more important than product, but the right product will make the technique much easier.



Then the other factor is, one finish will look great in ones eyes, but in the trained eys it will look ok. While I do have a very crucial eye for detail and being a perfectionist, I am always trying to bump my finish past it gloss point into the liquid stage. This is where skill and experience comes into factor.



1. Product

2. technique

3. trained eye

4. product knowledge

5. machine knowledge

6. product experience

7. machine experience

8. right pads

9. right product amount

10. paint knowledge

11. patience

12. etc...



To some of us it is very easy, but for some others it is tough, but just keep learning the right techniques and will have a great finish.



I also do have the po85rd3.02 and love it most of the time. It can be a pain on polish pads, but on cutting pads or compound pads it works superb. I just do not like the fact that it does get the pads very hot and hurts my machine for extended use. But the finish I do get is superb! It is not the perfect polish for the Metabo, as it keeps shutting the machine off. So, even with the right product/pad and along with the right machine techniques, you still need the right machine to get the job done right.
 
rydawg said:
1. Product

2. technique

3. trained eye

4. product knowledge

5. machine knowledge

6. product experience

7. machine experience

8. right pads

9. right product amount

10. paint knowledge

11. patience

12. etc...
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++1 I would change machine to "appropriate equipment knowledge" and you have it nailed!
 
This is why im not buying into the whole "106ff is the best finishing polish EVER" crap....



Understanding the product and how to use it is what matters. Me and my cheap megs and optimum are doing great together.
 
I think product is more important for good results when polishing. Getting the right pad and polish combo is essential to getting good results. Wrong pad/wrong product and you will end up with poor results (haze, insufficient correction, ect.) The key is to find what works for you.
 
wannafbody said:
I think product is more important for good results when polishing. Getting the right pad and polish combo is essential to getting good results. Wrong pad/wrong product and you will end up with poor results (haze, insufficient correction, ect.) The key is to find what works for you.
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That would more proper technique and tools than the product.
 
I agree with what is being said.



Im huge fan or SSR2.5 and the Optimum line and i can get them out get polishing and get the job done. I mainly post on Audi/VW forums and people are shocked that dont have Menzerna.



Geoff
 
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