Swirl marks caused by PC. Why?

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Blade9

New member
First off, I must say, this is only the 4th time I'm using a PC, and I've had real success the previous times. This is the first time I'm seeing this problem. I'm using Pinnacle ASR on an LC orange pad. After polishing, the swirl marks I wanted gone, are gone. But, in their place are these tiny (about 1/4" diameter) half-circular marks overlapping each other. They're here and there, not everywhere. Hard to see under normal light, but under halogens they show up. These look to me like the dual-action marks made by my PC. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Am I pressing too hard? Or, does my pad have embedded dirt somewhere in it?



I'm actually in the middle of it right now, and I will change to a clean pad to make sure it's not the pad. Any thoughts?
 
They are known as "pig tails" or micromarring. It's a very common issue and its due to the way the machine operates. I'm not sure if anyone has demonstrated a way to remove them without using a rotary.
 
Please tell us more about your polishing technique. How much pressure are you using, how large of an area are you polishing at a time, how big is that area, etc.



In general, the LC orange pad is quite aggressive so *some* micromarring with certain polishes is normal. You would just have to follow up with a less aggressive combination to remove those, but please tell us about your technique first because process is always more important than product.
 
"Pig tails" is such a perfect name for it!



My technique is based on the videos from AG. The area that I just did was the left fender, roughly 2'x1'. Following the AG videos, I spread the product using the PC set at speed 1. Then bumped it up between 5 and 6 for the actual work. I moved the PC slowly up and down then side to side overlapping each pass. I've marked my pads on the side with a Sharpie to see how much they're spinning, and so to gauge how much I'm pressing. I just press hard enough that the side marks move slowly, never letting it slow too much. I stop when the product has glazed over, usually around 3 minutes (just a guess, I've never really timed it).



I now have switched to another orange pad, and this time I did half of the left door. The door has a very flat lower part and a smaller upper part that is a bit angled toward the bottom of the window (hope I described that well - don't have a camera right now). The lower part is complete free of any pig tails, no marring of any kind. The upper portion has some pig tails, not as much as the previous fender.



Seeing that the flat area has no pigtails, do the dips and bends of the bodywork have anything to do with pig-tailling?
 
I've now finished the rest of the left door. On closer inspection, there are indeed some pigtails on the flat area (very few that I totally missed them the first time), much less than the upper part of the door, which is a lot less than the fender. I totally don't understand why it's not consistent (i.e. there are large areas where there aren't any pigtails), so I guess it must be due to my technique.



I'm going to finish up with the Pinnacle AFP on a white pad, and see if they'll go away.
 
wannafbody said:
Follow up with a white pad. A orange pad is fairly aggressive.
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Yeah, and watch that you don't apply too much pressure (esp. when using orange pads) at the first, before the polish has a chance to break down any.



Could be that *that* pad/product/machine combo just isn't right for the paint in question too :nixweiss
 
I had this problem too when first learning to polish with a PC. These result from the polish not breaking down completely, try either using less polish or working it longer.
 
Make sure your pads are completely clean too, one spec or dirt or something else in the pad can cause what you have too, I had this happen and when I looked at the pad there was a grain of sand of something in the pad that I picked up at the bottom of the car that caused marring.
 
did you clay the car first? This happened to me when i was a total newbie to detailing. Picked up sand or some contaminant on the paint and it was swirl city, all while I was trying to get rid of them.
 
Yes I washed and clayed it first, and the surface was glass smooth, so I'm fairly confident there weren't any grit on it.



However, I think you guys are right about too much pressure. (And thanks Accumulator for the tip - I'll keep that in mind next time.) In retrospect, I was indeed applying much more pressure than I did in my initial tries, probably because I was much more confident this time, but lost track of the basics. I have now done the whole car and there's areas where the surface was heavenly swirl-free and pigtail-free. But there a few areas where I can see these little half-circles randomly going one way and another (visible only under halogens). If they weren't on my car, I'd actually say they were "cute".



My follow-up question: Someone mentioned a rotary, but can I get rid of these pigtails with another round of polishing using just my current setup (PC,ASR,AFP)?
 
i'd use FPII and white pad to remove those, or menzerna IP and green pad if that didn't work. then FPII then seal. i run the pc at 4.5 and easy pressure, and run it at 2 for sealant seems to work well
 
Blade9 said:
... I have now done the whole car and there's areas where the surface was heavenly swirl-free and pigtail-free. But there a few areas where I can see these little half-circles randomly going one way and another ...
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That's a good sign, that some areas are OK. That means that with the proper technique you oughta be able to get this sorted out (assuming they really *are* OK and you didn't just miss them during your inspection ;) ).



My follow-up question: Someone mentioned a rotary, but can I get rid of these pigtails with another round of polishing using just my current setup (PC,ASR,AFP)?
Click to expand...



If you don't finish out 100% hologram-free (a mighty tall order, a lot of us can't do it) you'll have to use the PC for the final polishing anyhow. I wouldn't open the rotary can of worms at present.



As noted, I'd guess that if you got *some* areas OK with your current setup you can do it to the rest of the vehicle. Sorry, I just dunno from those products so I'm merely guessing :nixweiss
 
I keep seeing questions like "How much pressure are you using?" Well, how can you gauge pressure? What is "really hard" to one person won't be the same for someone else. What is the appropriate amount of pressure for polishing in terms that is a universal standard for PC's?
 
Are you simply using the weight of the machine to do the final polishing or are you pusing so hard that you mushroom the pads and bog the machine. Use pressure for swirl removal and let the machine glide for final polishing.
 
I'm a real noob at this so I marked the side of my pads with about 3 or 4 vertical lines spaced evenly apart along the circumference (using a Sharpie). I can gauge how much pressure I'm putting on by looking at the speed the markers are moving along the side. Too much pressure and the markers stop. I was using just enough pressure to make the markers slowly move along, but I guess that's still too much, eh?



I'm detailing another car this weekend and will ease off on the pressure, i.e. make the markers spin faster.
 
I had the same problem with micromarring with an orange pad on the PC. Mine was attributed to using too much polish which made it difficult to fully break down. Try a smaller amount of polish and smaller working area (like 12x12") to see if this eliminates the problem.
 
Blade9 said:
I'm a real noob at this so I marked the side of my pads with about 3 or 4 vertical lines spaced evenly apart along the circumference (using a Sharpie). I can gauge how much pressure I'm putting on by looking at the speed the markers are moving along the side. Too much pressure and the markers stop. I was using just enough pressure to make the markers slowly move along, but I guess that's still too much, eh?



I'm detailing another car this weekend and will ease off on the pressure, i.e. make the markers spin faster.
Click to expand...





Why didnt you just mark your backing plate instead of each pad individually?
 
Dsoto87 said:
Why didnt you just mark your backing plate instead of each pad individually?
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I started marking my pads with the product I used on them (ASR,SIP,etc). From there, it was a natural step to do the lines. But thanks for the tip, I'll try that tomorrow.



Well, today I polished another car, concentrating on much less pressure than before. I'm glad to report that I cannot see any pig-tails this time (checked from many angles under dual 500W halogens). Despite getting much of the swirls removed, I could not get rid of the bigger/longer scratches. So it's not *perfect*. Oh well...



But at least, I've solved one problem thanks to you guys. Anyway, I wasn't looking for *perfect*, just *better*. I'll do it again after winter.
 
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