Surbuf Pad paired with M105 and PC is a defect killer!

Hey guys, I apologize for posting to a thread that's almost half a year old. I just want to share my results. Unfortunately, I do not have before pictures, as they were pretty useless. My camera is unable to capture the defects prior to the paint correction being described below. It is really hard to capture defects on the silver metallic paint. However, defects are much easier to spot in person!





A few weeks ago, I wetsanded my hood to remove some orange peel. Although I removed much of the sanding marks using the DA and a cutting pad, I was left with a few tracers and some sanding hazes on the hood. The tracers were caused by the 2000 grit and 2500 sandpaper. I decided to experiment two different methods to remove the deeper sanding marks.





The Procedures:

Setup 1 - 7" Surbuf Pad + 7424XP at Speed 6

Setup 2 - 6.5" Purple Foamed Wool + Makita Rotary at up to 2000rpm





Compound - M105

Lubrication for Surbuf - Last Touch 1:1 upon the recommendation of KB



I split the hood into two sections. I used the rotary on the passenger side and the DA on the driver side. I worked in sections of roughly 2' x 2'. Surface wiped with 1:1 99% Alcohol and Distilled Water after each pass and observed under the afternoon sun.



The two pads being compared:

07caf49b.jpg




The Surbuf R series compared to the traditional Wool Pad:

59c4424b.jpg




Observations:



Rotary + PFW:



As expected, the rotary coupled with the PFW was able to remove a majority of the remaining sanding marks and tracers in just one pass. After a wiping down the working area, and then observing the area under the sun, there were still a couple of very light scratches remaining. I gave the area another pass using the rotary and then wiping down the area with alcohol. I spent 10min looking for scratches in the 2' x 2' area to look for any remaining sanding scratches, but couldn't find any. As advertised, the LC PFW was able to remove deep sanding scratches, without causing any hazes and swirls.







DA + Surbuf R-Series:



After I completed the passenger side of the hood, I had a pretty good benchmark for the Surbuf pads. I utilized the Surbuf pads using the methods found in this thread here. I also used diluted alcohol to wipe down the working area after each pass and inspected the surface under the sun. Similar to the PFW + Rotary, the Surbuf + DA combo completely removed all the sanding scratches with just two passes. In my opinion, that was amazing, but also expected. Amazingly, the Surbuf pad and M105 finish very nicely without any nicks or scratches. In fact, the finish produced by the Surbuf pad is MUCH better than that produced by the orange cutting pad!!!! Keep in mind that the Surbuf R-Series pad is also designed for applying automotives waxes to automotive paint surfaces, according to the manufacturer! That explains why the M105 is able to finish nicely using the Surbuf pad. The Surbuf pad finishes very similar to the PFW. With that said, I would never use the Surbuf pads to apply any waxes.





From my observation, the rate of cut using the PFW and the rotary is slightly quicker than the DA + Surbuf. However, the difference is extremely minimal. Both methods cut at such a similar rate, it was shocking. Another thing is that I was able to maximize the working time of M105 by utilizing Kevin's prescribed method to work on the Surbuf pads. That increase in working time of the Surbuf pad compensates for its less aggressive pad material and rotational speed.







One of the best features of the Surbuf pad is that it generates very little friction, allowing the DA to rotate almost at its maximum speed. The Surbuf pad also uses MUCH less product than the PFW pad. Unlike wool, the surbuf microfingers are extremely short, making them ideal to use with the DA.







Another thing I notice is that the Surbuf pad generates LESS heat than the typical cutting FOAM pad on a DA. Using the PFW pad with the rotary at up to 2000rpm, the hood was a little warm to the touch, but cooler than expected. The PFW feels much more gentle to the touch than the traditional 4ply wool pad. I can imagine that the 4 ply wool pad to get quite hot at speeds of around 2000rpm.







I think I like the Surbuf pads. At least they do not smell like sheep when you wash them!







Anyway, here are some pictures (unfortunately the sun started to set when I begin taking pictures):



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the_invisible- Welcome to Autopia! Heh heh, that was one great first post :xyxthumbs



I'll have to revisit the SurBuf pads. Your experiences mirrored those of Kevin Brown so closely that OK...I'm convinced.



Though based on my not-satisfactory experiences on my Jag, I'll still reserve them for serious correction only.
 
Accumulator said:
the_invisible- Welcome to Autopia! Heh heh, that was one great first post :xyxthumbs



I'll have to revisit the SurBuf pads. Your experiences mirrored those of Kevin Brown so closely that OK...I'm convinced.



Though based on my not-satisfactory experiences on my Jag, I'll still reserve them for serious correction only.



Thanks for the warm welcome, man!



I guess the Surbuf pads can be a hit or miss. While it is able to remove serious defects, including 1500 grit sanding marks, the result depends on many different factors.



There are reasons why we do not see Surbuf pads being sold at places like Autogeek or Autodetailingsolutions, despite Surbuf's effort to market the pads as a fit candidate for applying both fine-cut cleaners and finishing waxes.
 
What a great first post like Accumulator said. First off let me say this. Kevin Brown is a very humble man who's teachings could change a lot if people listen to him. I think its nice to see that someone gave a good reveiw on his advice. I think this is a excellant review. I only hope Kevin gets a chance to see this. Anyway thanks for an awesome reveiw. Welcome to Autopia.

Barry
 
the_invisible said:
There are reasons why we do not see Surbuf pads being sold at places like Autogeek or Autodetailingsolutions, despite Surbuf's effort to market the pads as a fit candidate for applying both fine-cut cleaners and finishing waxes.



Heh heh, I was one person who got thoroughly bitten by trying to use the SurBuf pads with a mild product...messed things up but good. My take is that there are just some applications where these aren't the right pad for the job.



Now if they'd just stick with marketing them as being for serious correction only then maybe they could more easily break into the mainstream.



Til then people can get them at TOL, at least in the smaller sizes. But I think Irene oughta modify the ad-copy lest other people get nipped the way I did.
 
Nice write-up for sure... Happy to see you had a good experience with this pad.



I am the first to admit that it can be somewhat messy at times, and a little frustrating to learn. However- it is a LOT easier to learn than the rotary, especially if you are doing the learning on your own. YOU had a very positive experience using the Surbuf, but I caution others that your initial experience may be similarly positive OR more difficult. It just depends on the paint type, the depth and location of the defects, and of course the patience of the user!



bufferbarry said:
What a great first post like Accumulator said. First off let me say this. Kevin Brown is a very humble man who's teachings could change a lot if people listen to him. I think its nice to see that someone gave a good reveiw on his advice. I think this is a excellant review. I only hope Kevin gets a chance to see this. Anyway thanks for an awesome reveiw. Welcome to Autopia.

Barry



Thank you very much for such kind words, Barry. You are a class act, my man!



Accumulator said:
Heh heh, I was one person who got thoroughly bitten by trying to use the SurBuf pads with a mild product...messed things up but good. My take is that there are just some applications where these aren't the right pad for the job.



No- I also had a similar experience when I first started using these pads.

That is, if I went after defects as I would using a typical foam polishing pad, I would create errant pigtails. That being said, I am confident that this pad can successfully be used to apply things like cleaner waxes, and on some paints, it could be used for applying waxes. Then again, it would likely take a bit of practice to get a satisfactory result. If someone out there wanted to use JUST this type of pad to remove defects, then polish the paint, and finally apply a wax, I would not bet against the guy becuse motivation, patience, and a dogged attitude towards making things work cannot be discounted.



If YOU were put in a contest, head-to-head with another paint polishing guy, and you both had to use just this pad to do everything, how much would YOU bet that one of you couldn't make it work?!? Hmmmmm?



I am not saying that it would be the most efficient way to go about things. What is a neat thing about this pad is that a guy that does not know how to rotary polish can use it with the described method to remove some pretty serious defects via random orbital.



Do not be fooled into thinking that this pad cannot cause damage, because it certainly is capable of removing a lot of paint in a hurry, and it can really lock onto the paint!!! I know of at least one instance of paint twisting with this pad, so do not think of it as some foo-foo lightweight pad. This pad can damage paint. Be very careful when buffing plastic panels, bumpers, side view mirrors, and other parts that may have been painted using flex agents.



Once again, I want to mention that gmblack3 (Bryan Burnworth) has a lot of experience using this method, so he may be a guy that can help interested parties with some tips & tricks!





SuperBee364 said:
As the other guys said... great post!



Agreed! :goodjob
 
KBM via Surbuf pad:



This process can be messy.



7" surbuf pad.

6" BP

PC or XPPC

Straight IPA



1. Do not prime the surbuf pad.

2. Apply 4 "larger then pea sized" dots of M105 to the pad.

3. Work the polish into an 12x12" area without turning on your PC.

4. Spritz the surface with water.

5. As in step 3, again work the polish around without turning on your PC, you are looking for a milky consistency.

6. Turn on PC and work the polish till it appears to dry.

7. Spritz more water onto the suface and continue to polish. What this does is bring the polish out of the pad and back to the surface.

8. I have found that you will need IPA sprayed onto your MF to remove the M105 from the surface.

9. Inspect and repeat if needed.



Notes:

If you find that one time is not enough to remove defects, you can always repeat #7 and keep on polishing.



After 2-3 sections, you will need to clean the pad by brushing off the pad and blowing out the excess polish with compressed air. After the pad becomes overly saturated w/ polish clean with warn water and some APC. Spin to dry. The pad does not have to be totally dry to use it again.



I have removed severe defects and 2000 grit wetsanding marks with this method.



Depedning on the hardness of the clear, you "might" be able to go right to M205 with a gray finishing pad via the KBM. Sometimes a middle step with M205/orange pad via KBM is required.



IMO this method will level paint as good as a rotary.
 
gmblack3a said:
KBM via Surbuf pad:



This process can be messy.



7" surbuf pad.

6" BP

PC or XPPC

Straight IPA



1. Do not prime the surbuf pad.

2. Apply 4 "larger then pea sized" dots of M105 to the pad.

3. Work the polish into an 12x12" area without turning on your PC.

4. Spritz the surface with water.

5. As in step 3, again work the polish around without turning on your PC, you are looking for a milky consistency.

6. Turn on PC and work the polish till it appears to dry.

7. Spritz more water onto the suface and continue to polish. What this does is bring the polish out of the pad and back to the surface.

8. I have found that you will need IPA sprayed onto your MF to remove the M105 from the surface.

9. Inspect and repeat if needed.



Notes:

If you find that one time is not enough to remove defects, you can always repeat #7 and keep on polishing.



After 2-3 sections, you will need to clean the pad by brushing off the pad and blowing out the excess polish with compressed air. After the pad becomes overly saturated w/ polish clean with warn water and some APC. Spin to dry. The pad does not have to be totally dry to use it again.



I have removed severe defects and 2000 grit wetsanding marks with this method.



Depedning on the hardness of the clear, you "might" be able to go right to M205 with a gray finishing pad via the KBM. Sometimes a middle step with M105/orange pad via KBM is required.



IMO this method will level paint as good as a rotary.



Is there a way either you or Kevin Brown can make a video to better explain your finding with the surbuf pad and 105? Just a short video showing a test panel.



Not saying you havent already explain your finding well, you have by all means and I am truly impressed! Just something to study and learn from, I learn better by example then learning from raw data, more visual in other words. Thanks again!
 
DetailnByDustn said:
Is there a way either you or Kevin Brown can make a video to better explain your finding with the surbuf pad and 105? Just a short video showing a test panel.



Not saying you havent already explain your finding well, you have by all means and I am truly impressed! Just something to study and learn from, I learn better by example then learning from raw data, more visual in other words. Thanks again!



The next time I get a car to do at the house that needs the surbuf pads, I will do that. Not sure when that will be. Wish I would thought of it on that vette.
 
gmblack3a said:
The next time I get a car to do at the house that needs the surbuf pads, I will do that. Not sure when that will be. Wish I would thought of it on that vette.



No worries, whenever you get a chance, I would be interested in buying some subuf pads after I've seen how to properly use them.
 
DetailnByDustn said:
Is there a way either you or Kevin Brown can make a video to better explain your finding with the surbuf pad and 105? Just a short video showing a test panel.



Not saying you havent already explain your finding well, you have by all means and I am truly impressed! Just something to study and learn from, I learn better by example then learning from raw data, more visual in other words. Thanks again!



Well, honestly, the best way is to take the ideas of other people and derive a method that works for you. For instance, on some paint, I simply use the Surbuf pad as I would any other foam pads, and the result is almost similar to that of a WOOL pad on a ROTARY! The bottom line is, you do not really have to follow the exact procedures described by other people. You can develop your own through testing. Chance is that different methods would yield similar results. The different methods being discussed, I believe, determine the aggressiveness of the setup. Priming the Surbuf pads will give you a somewhat longer working time as well as slightly more cutting power, at the cost of using more product. Also, if you desire a higher rotational speed, use Last Touch as a form of lubrication for the surbuf pad during the buffing process. Using Last Touch as lubricant also prolongs the working time of the product, and creates less gum up of product. Other factors such as pressure, humidity, temperature could still affect the results of your buffing, and thus influencing the procedures you need to perform.



Anyway, I did some more testing today. I wetsanded my hood using 2500 grit sandpaper to remove some very slight orange peel. Instead of using a rotary and a wool pad, I opted for the Surbuf pad and DA setup. My decision to use the Surbuf pad over the wool and rotary is based on the fact that I am only doing the hood, so I do not want to break open the glass case and reach for the wool, which is a chore to clean. The Surbuf pad is extremely easy to clean and doesn't smell like dead sheep.



here are the results. The Surbuf pad has completely removed all the sanding marks. The product I used was Ultimate Compound. I do not see the need for M105, but I also wanted something more aggressive than M205, which is claimed to be powerful enough to remove 2000 grit sanding marks with the Surbuf pad. To me, UC simply makes sense because it is a very cheap product that is easily obtainable.



From what I read on Meguiar's Online, UC has a very similar aggressiveness to M105. The major difference, from my understanding, is that UC is not intended to be use with a rotary and that it is not suitable for bodyshop environment. The M105 can be applied in whatever way desired, even in the bodyshop setting. The fact that UC is not suitable for rotary application gives it an apparent limitation that it is not a product intended for sanding mark removal. With the Surbuf pad thrown into the equation, that changes completely.





Here are some pictures after the buffing with UC and Surbuf:

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I did a Alcohol solution wipe after compounding to ensure that the oil in Ultimate Compound was not filling in the sanding scratches. All the sanding marks were removed. One thing I would like to note is that unlike M105, Ultimate Compound coupled with Surbuf did not leave any holograms, swirls, or scratches on the black paint. Also, unlike M105, UC was much easier to remove. Although M105 and Surbuf together can remove some serious defects, UC also works EXTREMELY well. In fact, ease of application and removal of UC make it another ideal product for use with the Surbuf pad. Soo... don't sweat it if you don't have M105, but want to try the Surbuf pad. UC will work just as well for removing wetsanding marks.





To ensure a perfect finish, I followed up the process with SwirlX and a polishing pad. The result was stunning. Unfortunately, due to my haste in LSP application, I left some significant streaking on the hood with NXT 2.0. Oh, well.
 
:goodjob the_invisible !!

Yesterday I removed some serious marks in my car with 105 and Surbuf pads. I have to try them with UC. And maybe 205 + Surbuf will be a nice combo for 1 step correction...
 
It is funny, but things such as techniques that can take years to find and perfect Kevin has explained in such scientific detail but in lay terms that MOST of us can readily use.This is almost harder than thinking up this stuff in the first place.......... true correction knowledge on display for all to benefit from!!!!!!!!!.
 
Wow, another bookmarked thread. Great detailed info from both KB and gmblack. As for the_invisible, even with a single-digit post count you've made the best of them for sure. Now i have to add Surbuf pads to my Must-Buy list.
 
the_invisible said:
Well, honestly, the best way is to take the ideas of other people and derive a method that works for you. For instance, on some paint, I simply use the Surbuf pad as I would any other foam pads, and the result is almost similar to that of a WOOL pad on a ROTARY! The bottom line is, you do not really have to follow the exact procedures described by other people. You can develop your own through testing. Chance is that different methods would yield similar results. The different methods being discussed, I believe, determine the aggressiveness of the setup. Priming the Surbuf pads will give you a somewhat longer working time as well as slightly more cutting power, at the cost of using more product. Also, if you desire a higher rotational speed, use Last Touch as a form of lubrication for the surbuf pad during the buffing process. Using Last Touch as lubricant also prolongs the working time of the product, and creates less gum up of product. Other factors such as pressure, humidity, temperature could still affect the results of your buffing, and thus influencing the procedures you need to perform.



Anyway, I did some more testing today. I wetsanded my hood using 2500 grit sandpaper to remove some very slight orange peel. Instead of using a rotary and a wool pad, I opted for the Surbuf pad and DA setup. My decision to use the Surbuf pad over the wool and rotary is based on the fact that I am only doing the hood, so I do not want to break open the glass case and reach for the wool, which is a chore to clean. The Surbuf pad is extremely easy to clean and doesn't smell like dead sheep.



here are the results. The Surbuf pad has completely removed all the sanding marks. The product I used was Ultimate Compound. I do not see the need for M105, but I also wanted something more aggressive than M205, which is claimed to be powerful enough to remove 2000 grit sanding marks with the Surbuf pad. To me, UC simply makes sense because it is a very cheap product that is easily obtainable.



From what I read on Meguiar's Online, UC has a very similar aggressiveness to M105. The major difference, from my understanding, is that UC is not intended to be use with a rotary and that it is not suitable for bodyshop environment. The M105 can be applied in whatever way desired, even in the bodyshop setting. The fact that UC is not suitable for rotary application gives it an apparent limitation that it is not a product intended for sanding mark removal. With the Surbuf pad thrown into the equation, that changes completely.



I did a Alcohol solution wipe after compounding to ensure that the oil in Ultimate Compound was not filling in the sanding scratches. All the sanding marks were removed. One thing I would like to note is that unlike M105, Ultimate Compound coupled with Surbuf did not leave any holograms, swirls, or scratches on the black paint. Also, unlike M105, UC was much easier to remove. Although M105 and Surbuf together can remove some serious defects, UC also works EXTREMELY well. In fact, ease of application and removal of UC make it another ideal product for use with the Surbuf pad. Soo... don't sweat it if you don't have M105, but want to try the Surbuf pad. UC will work just as well for removing wetsanding marks.





To ensure a perfect finish, I followed up the process with SwirlX and a polishing pad. The result was stunning. Unfortunately, due to my haste in LSP application, I left some significant streaking on the hood with NXT 2.0. Oh, well.



Thanks for sharing your experience using UC and the surbuf pads. I will be sure to give that a try.
 
Just wondering, has anyone tried using the Surbuf pads with something other than M105? More specifically a diminishing abrasive like Menzerna SIP?
 
Just did some searching on Autopia for Surbuf pads. Looks like these pads go back to 2002 on the searches. I'm surprised it hasn't been hyped more over the past 7+ years.



I'm curious if the 3" pads would be good for spot polishing on a rotary. I'm currently using 4" LC Orange foam for spot compounding which works pretty good with M105. I was not impressed using 3.5" LC PFW on the rotary with M105. I doubt these Surbuf pads would work well on rotary since they were designed for Random Orbitals but at $14 for 8 for the 3" version perhaps it's worth a shot.



I also own a Flex 3401 and I'm interested in a better compounding pad for it. Perhaps these Surbuf pads would be the way to go? I've tried both 6.5" LC PFW and the 6" TufBuff Black Lambs Wool pads on the Flex and wasn't impressed with either. Perhaps I'm biased because I'm a rotary user who likes to use good ole' wool? Am I expecting too much?
 
ABQDetailer said:
Just did some searching on Autopia for Surbuf pads. Looks like these pads go back to 2002 on the searches. I'm surprised it hasn't been hyped more over the past 7+ years.



It's gained popularity here ever since M105/KBM was discovered by Kevin Brown via Bryan & Todd.



ABQDetailer said:
I'm curious if the 3" pads would be good for spot polishing on a rotary. I also own a Flex 3401 and I'm interested in a better compounding pad for it. Perhaps these Surbuf pads would be the way to go? I've tried both 6.5" LC PFW and the 6" TufBuff Black Lambs Wool pads on the Flex and wasn't impressed with either. Perhaps I'm biased because I'm a rotary user who likes to use good ole' wool? Am I expecting too much?





Surbuf pads are designed specifically for use on random orbit sanders/polishers and probably would inflict some major damage if used with a rotary. They are not like traditional wool pads in any way. Probably as close as you can get to being an all out furry sanding disk. :chuckle:
 
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