Straight line marring

[Accumulator]

David Fermani- If what you're doing works for you, then by all means stick with it! I'm not sure why I have to go to such extreme lengths to avoid marring, but *I* do



One thing I always wonder about (and don't take this the wrong way, it sounds like I'm saying you're blind or something and I don't mean to come across that way) is the lighting under which people inspect the paint. MirrorFinishMan, a very successful pro, and I have gone over this before..and he once suggested that I'm overly critical, using unrealisticly demanding lighting that shows stuff that is otherwise invisible. Perhaps he's right...



Under fluorescents (I have dozens of 8' tubes in my shop) and even natural sunlight, some kinds of marring just don't show much. I've had plenty of vehicles that looked absolutely *perfect* until I played around with the lighting in my shop, especially *incandescent* light in an otherwise dark environment. The "playing around" can take a lot of time and effort (I literally spend almost as much time inspecting silver as I do working on it). This shows stuff that I simply can't see under other forms of lighting (including halogens). On silver, fluorescents only show such *terrible* marring that I simply can't rely on them as my vehicles generally don't get that messed up (the old ones notwithstanding). On the Byzanz metallic M3 it's almost as bad, even the halogens are merely so-so.



Again, sorry if that sounds like I'm questioning your ability to see stuff, I really don't intend to sound insulting and I'm speaking from personal experience: When I had my previous shop, with what I thought was wonderful lighting (including halogens), I used to get unpleasant surprises now and then in weird lighting conditions (e.g., some parking lots/gas stations at night). It didn't happen much, and nobody else ever saw it (sometimes even when I pointed it out!) but until I got in my present shop I just didn't have any way to duplicate those conditions when I was polishing/inspecting.



But hey- if what you're doing works for you, and the above doesn't apply, then cool! Count your blessings

 

[74 thing]

I don't have access to a hose in an apartment complex so hosing off the dirt/debris before starting the ONR is nor an option at this point.

 

[BigHonu]

...Under fluorescents (I have dozens of 8' tubes in my shop) and even natural sunlight, some kinds of marring just don't show much. I've had plenty of vehicles that looked absolutely *perfect* until I played around with the lighting in my shop, especially *incandescent* light in an otherwise dark environment. The "playing around" can take a lot of time and effort (I literally spend almost as much time inspecting silver as I do working on it). This shows stuff that I simply can't see under other forms of lighting (including halogens). On silver, fluorescents only show such *terrible* marring that I simply can't rely on them as my vehicles generally don't get that messed up (the old ones notwithstanding). On the Byzanz metallic M3 it's almost as bad, even the halogens are merely so-so.



Again, sorry if that sounds like I'm questioning your ability to see stuff, I really don't intend to sound insulting and I'm speaking from personal experience: When I had my previous shop, with what I thought was wonderful lighting (including halogens), I used to get unpleasant surprises now and then in weird lighting conditions (e.g., some parking lots/gas stations at night). It didn't happen much, and nobody else ever saw it (sometimes even when I pointed it out!) but until I got in my present shop I just didn't have any way to duplicate those conditions when I was polishing/inspecting....

Thank you very much for this post!! I have noticed that on my silver Altima I can get what looks like a 90% defect free finish under halogens AND sunlight, but move it under a good flourescent setup or sodium streetlights, then all of these other defects show up.



My wife's pearl white Acura looked stellar in the sunlight, but move it under some streetlights/parking structure lights/weak halogens and I could see *alot* more scratches and marring I initially missed.



At least I know I'm not the only one who spends some time setting up different types of lighting to inspect surfaces.

 

[Accumulator]

BigHonu- It can be really weird how flaws do/don't show up under different types of lighting. We've had a *lot* of posts about this here over the years and I still can't explain just why/how it works the way it does.



I'm still worried that David Fermani's gonna take offense at what I posted regarding his situation...a guy like him who's *removed* fine marring can certainly *see* it :think: So again, if a given wash regimen (or anything else) is working for somebody then that's what counts and just because something doesn't work for me that doesn't mean it won't work for somebody else.



74 Thing- Yeah, your situation is tough. Washing without the elaborate setup I use, and doing it without causing any marring, takes expertise/knowledge/something that *I* simply don't possess. Good luck with it, the best I can recommend is to try the "jiggle" motions and try to dislodge the (potentially abrasive) and gently get it off the finish without grinding it in or dragging it across.

 

[David Fermani]

Accumulator - No offense taken with your post and thanks for showing interest in my feelings. I totally respect your response and your opinions. :bow :2thumbs: Over the years I've paid close attention(sometimes too close) to my finish and I've practiced what I think are good techniques for proper finish maintenance, and I really believe that it's held up and paid off. Washing and detailing cars (the correct way) is second nature to me and so is my eye for details with respect to finish. As far as my vehicles go, if I look really hard under certain light I can see a few single line marks - scattered without pattern. Under florescent light at night, like at a gas station or if I pull into my garage with just 1 overhead light, it looks as if I just detailed it - no marring. I really have to look hard to see minor marring. Right after spray waxing (Hydro Shine), the finish is *perfect* once again. My company car (06 Malibu / dark gray / 30,000 miles) has only been clayed and spray waxed and it looks better than new. Not a mark on it (from washing). I'm a firm believer that the more you touch the finish, the more you take the risk of marring it. I think it's a must to thoroughly power wash the complete vehicle prior to laying a hand on it, removing all the loose debris and only leaving road film (if anything) to be hand washed away. I'm afraid as well as don't have the need to try any form of brush (even BHB) in fear that it is too brittle and *could* cause light damage. I'm also deathly afraid of the waterless washes too. Keeping a vehicle waxed (what ever form) maintains a buffer/cushion to eliminate potential marring as well - I'm sure this isn't anything new to you). Damage IMHO is from direct friction. If you eliminate/minimize it (friction), it lessens the chance for damage. If you practice all these things, how is one opening themselves up for damage?

 

[BigHonu]

Accumulator, I'm finding it a little frustrating at times because I always want to take the least aggressive approach to achieve results. I work on the finish and achieve what looks like great results at the time, only to find out that there are quite a bit of defects still there.



Ironically, the defects stand out the best in the situations where I seem to have the type of lighting I would never work under.

 

[Accumulator]

Accumulator, I'm finding it a little frustrating at times because I always want to take the least aggressive approach to achieve results. I work on the finish and achieve what looks like great results at the time, only to find out that there are quite a bit of defects still there...

This is where you have to flip the coin and decide which side you're betting on..if you get aggressive enough to remove all the flaws then you're taking off lots of clear, and there's a limit to how often you can do this. If you don't get all that aggressive, then your paint will last forever but you have to live with the marring. IMO until you get things (wash/dry, normal use, *everything*) sorted out so that you won't mar it again, you oughta just live with a reasonable degree of imperfection.

Ironically, the defects stand out the best in the situations where I seem to have the type of lighting I would never work under.

That's what was driving *me* nuts too! I finally found that high-wattage incandescent lights (an old-fashioned trouble light and regular ceiling-mounted bulbs) do the trick, but only if I turn out all the other lights and inspect from numerous viewing angles and distances. IF (and it's a mighty big "if") I spend enough time I can spot *everything* that way. Sometimes I just need to get away from the job for a while and come back to look at it with "fresh eyes". It can be a real PIA and I sometimes wonder if I shouldn't just live with the little bit of marring that I spot that way. Heh heh, gotta admit I don't plan to regularly inspect my beater-Blazer all that closely...there's something to be said for having a beater with paint that can't be made perfect....no point in stressing about it so I just *don't*

Accumulator - No offense taken with your post and thanks for showing interest in my feelings. I totally respect your response and your opinions...

OK, cool, thanks for that (load off my mind).



I too find it interesting that some of us have *such* and issue with wash/dry-induced marring while others don't Any more I just figure: if you don't have a problem, cool, lucky you; if you *do* have a problem, bummer, here's how *I* try to solve it.



I had the big "lightbulb comes on" when I read how you start your wash- I bet your initial pressure-wash accomplishes about the same thing as my initial passes with the BHB/foamgun- all the big abrasive particles are gone before the "regular washing" begins. IMO this keeps the marring down to the slight, random stuff that you mentioned, which is easily hidden with LSPs.



On a few of our vehicles I'm working towards not even having *that* minute degree of marring, and it's quite a challenge! That was the kind of marring I was talking about in my reply to you BTW, not the sort of stuff that's so obvious..I think I was kinda having two different discussions at the same time on this thread.



I sure understand your reluctance to employ a BHB, and it doesn't sound like you need to use one anyhow. I CD-test mine regularly and I'm confident that the bristles of the brushes won't, in and of themselves, cause marring.



And yeah, I *have* had instances where the very light marring was just in the (thickly layered) LSP. Not usually the case though, much as I wish it were. That *is* the whole idea behind sacrificial coatings, huh?



Sounds like we both have methods that work for us :xyxthumbs

 

[Mark77]

Well I don´t want to offend anyone either, but hosing the car very well with an electric pressure washer before touching the paint helps a lot. I have found no trouble with the PW in about 5 years, no marring and paint failures. In the winter I spray on a degreaser and hit it with the PW and it's almost clean, I just wash it the normal way to get everything. I have used different light sources and so on, but no marring from washing so far. In Scandinavia we have very dirty cars in the winter and this is how most car caring people do it here.

 

[BigHonu]

Accumulator.



It seems our experiences are similar with regards to the type of lighting and environment that works. Low ambient light, relatively warm incan light, with different angles and distances.



My cars are daily drivers so I try not to scrutinize too much. Heck, I got the passenger side of my wife's car mark free (in any lighting condition) last Saturday only to find a deep scuff from a shopping cart on Sunday.

 

[Accumulator]

BigHonu- Yeah, it doesn't pay to try to keep *every* vehicle perfect...something always seems to happen anyhow. I no sooner got my beater-Blazer all nice when somebody gave me a weird scratch that's down to the primer



Mark77- Lots of people like pressure washing, and as long as it's working for you then nobody oughta knock it. Just be careful around trim...I blew some off the Blazer a while back just drying it with the air compressor, had to glue it back on, what a hassle.

 

[clnfrk]

Like David Fermani, I am also afraid of the waterless washes (ONR), however I did order a small bottle of it from Autogeek in case I ever get the nerve to use it on my car which I don't think I will anytime soon. I'll probably just end up using it as a clay lube and/or mixing it with my normal car wash solution. I might even try it out on the lower extremities of the car for spot cleaning.

 

[David Fermani]

I had the big "lightbulb comes on" when I read how you start your wash- I bet your initial pressure-wash accomplishes about the same thing as my initial passes with the BHB/foamgun- all the big abrasive particles are gone before the "regular washing" begins. IMO this keeps the marring down to the slight, random stuff that you mentioned, which is easily hidden with LSPs.

But back to my earlier comment about "every time you touch a vehicle, you risk the chance of marring it". I would have to say that powerwashing is frictionless/non-touching where BHBing is used with friction/touching. That, it essence, is 2 different processes. You're rubbing/touching the finish(dirty) to get the "big abrasive particles" off prior to handwashing and I'm not. That may be a big difference? What if 1(or more) big abrasive dirt particle gets lodged in the hairs of the brush and it drags/touches the paint. There's a good chance that that 1 particle *could* cause damage(scratching/removal of LSP). When I touch the finish, all the heavy abrasives are washed away and just the road oil(slight abrasives due to being dirt) are the only thing that imposes a problem. But, with fresh LSP, those oils being rubbed into the finish, are on top of the barrier(LSP) which aids in the "anti-marring" effect of cleaning. When a vehicle looses it's protection/LSP wears down, the finish is more dry/brittle and touching/friction poses more of a potential problem. Then, look back a few steps and also evaluate what process removes LSP the most: powerwashing / hand washing / BHBing? It sounds like there could be a combination of negative processes. Does what I'm saying make sense??

 

[Conundrum]

Well I was just about to run out and get that leaf blower I posted about...but then I started to think it might not be the best idea...



From what I gather, a 220mph leaf blower isn't going to completely dry the car, which means I'll still need to go over the finish with MF after using the blower. That being the case, wouldn't the blower disturb all the dirt, dust, salt, whatever around the car, and deposit some it onto the paint? IMO that would cause more damage than if I just dried it conventionally using only MF. Its kind of like how I have no issues using MF after just washing, but if I had to drive the car around the block I wouldn't want to touch it with MF again unless I rewashed the car, used PB S&W, etc, etc.

 

[Accumulator]

Conundrum- The disrupted-dirt issue will depend on your work environment and how well you can control the output from the blower. With, for instance, the AirWand on a blower the air is directed in a rather concentrated and easily controlled manner. But you always have to be careful with approaches like this.



David Fermani- I enjoy discussions like this as they help me rethink/refine my processes!



First, let me say that the pressure washing approach won't work for me on some of my vehicles because of panel fit/trim/other delicate-item issues, but it would be a good approach on others. More controlling, I can't do it at present because my shop is overcrowded with all the accumulated vehicles and I have to be *very* careful about spray/mist/etc. lest I get it on the ones parked near the wash bay. Yeah, I need to come up with some curtains or something. I'm sure *NOT* criticizing the pw approach for the initial cleaning and if I can figure out a way to do it I might go that route on a number of our vehicles (but I'll have to be *very* careful about trim).



You're right about how my BHB/foamgun approach does subject the finish to more touching/friction/etc; I consider it a threshold of significance issue and I try not to stumble over that line. Done properly (and that's a tall order, took me ages to sort out the right technique, which isn't easy) the contact is truly minimal and dirt is flushed away long before it can do damage. It's the sort of thing you'd either have to experience yourself or take my word for (preferably the former if you think the way I do ). Done *improperly*, or on a neglected finish that won't readily shed contamination, yeah, the likelihood of marring is significant. When friends watch me doing it, they shake their heads about how overboard I am and what an obvious PIA the process is. Heh heh, I hear lots of "I'd rather polish the car every now and then" comments.



As to how well my process works, *that* one you'll have to take my word for (or not). As you can tell I'm pretty extreme about inspecting for marring, and I won't tolerate anything remotely significant. That said, I don't have to polish much at all, not for years at a time (except for the RIDS that are not related to washing but rather people brushing against the cars, etc.).



But again, given a different shop setup, I wouldn't be the least bit opposed to using a pressure washer for some vehicles. Note that this is a new position for me to take (at least on these forums) as I used to have a *lot* of concerns about it that no longer worry me, and I now accept that something doesn't have to be right for *every* vehicle to be worthwhile.



Also, it occurs to me that my undercar wand (dunno if you've seen the posts about it) does do a semi-pressure wash initial rinse of the sides of the vehicle as I spray them while doing the underneath. Not the same sort of pressure, but I can do it without overspray.



Q: what degree of pressure do you use? Some of my vehicles have *so* much trim that's loosely attached...no question my Karcher would blow it right off if used at even 50% of its max. And no, heh heh, I'm not gonna pull the trim and try to attach it more securely

 

[David Fermani]

Q: what degree of pressure do you use? Some of my vehicles have *so* much trim that's loosely attached...no question my Karcher would blow it right off if used at even 50% of its max. And no, heh heh, I'm not gonna pull the trim and try to attach it more securely

I use an electric 2 gallon per minute unit made by CAT. It's set to 1500psi and I use a #3 tip with a medium spray pattern. I think it's pretty safe and I've never had a problem(knock on wood). I directly blow the water(full blast) into all the cracks/gaps on every vehicle I detail. Would you consider blue taping the loose trim down?



Do you ever revert back to hand washing any of your vehicles? If so, can you notice a difference? Do you ever use spray wax?

 

[Accumulator]

I use an electric 2 gallon per minute unit made by CAT. It's set to 1500psi and I use a #3 tip with a medium spray pattern. I think it's pretty safe and I've never had a problem(knock on wood). I directly blow the water(full blast) into all the cracks/gaps on every vehicle I detail. Would you consider blue taping the loose trim down?

Nah, I wouldn't touch the dirty vehicle to tape it and I wouldn't want to blow dirty [stuff] into some of those recesses. A lot of my trepidation is specific-situation stuff, vehicles that are somewhat fragile for one reason or another. Heh heh, seems like it's either one thing (avoiding touching) or another (stuff like the trim issue), huh..that's why I'm so in favor of people using whatever works for them, even if it's not something that I'd do.



Thanks for explaining how you're doing it, though. That'd work fine on some of our vehicles. On others it'd be a recipe for disaster.

Do you ever revert back to hand washing any of your vehicles? If so, can you notice a difference? Do you ever use spray wax?

Yeah, I've done non-foamgun washes and it usually (not always, but usually) resulted in some degree of marring. After a few such incidents (and the resulting ages spent with the rotary, Cylos, etc.) I decided to never wash *my* vehicles the "old" way again...a case of erring on the side of caution. I used to be *so* frustrated when I saw faint marring on vehicles after a hard winter...ticked me off that I'd have to polish them. So I get great, perhaps excessive, satisfaction out of *not* marring 'em any more.



I do regular washes on service loaners that I'm giving freebie-details, and I recently did it on the M3, which is getting a full compounding anyhow (before it goes to the paintshop for a full repaint, so I'm just fooling around with it). It's hard to tell, what with the condition those cars are in, but I'm sure I mar them washing that way.



The closest I come to spray waxes is the use of "fortified QDs" after a wash, and I only use those on certain vehicles. After I use up the gallons of said products that I have on-hand, I do plan to use some spray waxes (again, on certain vehicles), if I can find ones that don't mess with the beading/appearance characteristics of the LSPs I'm using. E.g., I've heard that AW changes the beading characteristics of Collinite waxes and I presume it'd do it to #16 too. When that concern isn't a factor, I think the idea is great.

 

[Changeling]

Please explain "fortified QDs" and there use if you don't mind?

I have a gallon of Megs 34, can this be used as a base?



Sorry to interrupt, but this thread was getting intriguing.



Changeling

 

[Accumulator]

Please explain "fortified QDs" and there use if you don't mind?

I have a gallon of Megs 34, can this be used as a base?

Sorry, once again I was unintentionally inscrutable



By "fortified QDs" I just meant QDs that leave something significant behind. #34 is sorta the *opposite* in that it hardly leaves *anything* behind. QDs like FK 425, Griot's SpeedShine, Pinnacle CM, QuikShine, and [others I'm not thinking of] aren't "spray waxes" (like DuraGloss AW is) but they come close in that they impart added looks and protection.