Still getting holograms despite careful washing. Frustrated

[SWETM]

I see you live in Texas and one thing I have seen with Menzerna polishes is they can get finicky when the humidity is high. So if that is the case where you live or you washing the car in the same place you are polishing I would take a second thought about Menzerna polishes. Then if you are satisfied with Optimum Hyper Polish you can test out Hyper Compound. Then getting pads that are 2 steps up in cutting ability than the orange LC pad. Do a test spot with Hyper Polish and the more coarse cutting pad. Wipe the polishing oils off with carpro Eraser and inspect with lighting. If the marring still exists step up to Hyper Compound and do the same and if it still is not enough cut the more coarse cutting pad and HC.

I still recommend to go with Sonax Cutmax. And for be safe go with Sonax Perfect Finish since it is great on soft finicky paints. Then tune it in with the orange pad or the more coarse cutting pad.

Since your clearcoat seems to be on the rock hard side. After spreading the product with first dabbing it out and then on the speed 1 to get a even layer. Go for it and set the speed to 5-6 and work with slow armspeed and do 4-5 passes and inspect. This is deminishing abrasive and work it for more passes is not going to do much. When the abrasive is deminished the cut is done. Do this as test spot but just test on the same test spot twice so you don`t abrade to much on the same spot. The M205 is non deminishing abrasive and can be worked longer and ad a little water when you see it starts to dust. A more cut in the pad you may do get the cut you are after. But with a compound you do the same but faster. If you have a finishing pad you can maybe see if you have a soft finicky paint if it clears up with Hyper Polish which is both non deminishing abrasive and deminishing abrasive. Don`t over work HP then you don`t have the benefit of the deminishing abrasive. For soft finicky paints what I have heard of is deminishing abrasive great on. Here are some Sonax PF, Carpro Reflect, Rupes Keramik and 3D Polish +

 

[Accumulator]

I never let any product - compound of any level of cut - polish of any level of polishing - dry out when I use it..

My thoughts exactly!

If you are using any product and it dries to dust, that is not enough time for it to work long enough.. I also hate that dust flying all over everywhere that has to now be removed..
For example, Meguiars 105 - an excellent heavy duty compound dries up almost instantly and wants to make a big mess that is hard to remove..

Now *there* I`m not sure whether I agree or not?!? Some products do have a *VERY* short work-time (e.g., M105), so for them to "work long enough" I stop, clean/reprime pad/resume many, many times, which can take forever to get things done.

If I just start out with a primed pad that is a little moist from a spray of water, pad conditioner, and then perhaps stop and spray the area if it starts to dry out too fast, that compound can correct the heck out out of anything and actually finish down really good..

Heh heh, I do stuff like that too, but hesitate to recommend it ("don`t try this at home, kids!") because it can sometimes render the product *very* aggressive when the [stuff you spray on] replaces the original Polishing Oils.

There is no such thing as - "so many "passes" will be enough to make it perfect each time.. You have to be looking at it while you`re working on it and evaluating the results as they happen, and adjust that time on it to go longer, shorter, etc..

Right! And I suggest forgetting about what you see people say/do in this regard on the internet. "I gave this two passes and look how perfect it is!" shouldn`t influence *anybody* in any way IMO. YMMV and it takes as long, and as many passes, as it takes.

If I was in Texas I would be happy to come up with my tools and help you out..

Which would probably get this all sorted out in no time

 

[Accumulator]

Bill1975- Thanks for the additional info.

With M205, and some Menzerna products too (I hate PO106FF for this reason!), the oils dissipate over time (sometimes a long time) causing flaws to reemerge, but it sounds like your issues are coming from the wash/dry. Understandable as marring-free washes are a *LOT* harder than most could ever imagine.

Doing the panel wipe is smart, sounds like you`re seeing what`s really there now (even if it`s not what you`d like to see).

I`d be pretty surprised if the MFs are, in-and-of themselves, causing the problem, but I`d probably CD-test them to be sure.

I can`t quite decide whether "light, hologram-like marring" is more likely to come from the wash, or from drying still-dirty panels...

...VW paint may be hard to correct but it seems easy to scratch!

Heh heh, hey..I LOVED seeing you post that! You`re absolutely correct and realizing that is a big step forward whether you realized it or not

Sorta-random ideas for a fix follow:

-Ensure the paint is clean before you do any further correction (clay/etc., really decontaminate them since residual dirt might be the problem)
-Find some products that *YOU* consider user-friendly (welcome to the "no M205 for me, thanks" club )
-Don`t work the abrasive products dry, wipe off while still a little wet even if it means Big Hassle/Lots of Time
-Clean, or better yet replace, your pads, and MFs, *very* frequently; don`t let soiled stuff touch the paint
-Keep using the spray that strips the panel clean and shows what`s really there
-When you do get it corrected, use some LSP that *really* sheds dirt readily
-Consider a more potent shampoo mix and/or a better shampoo (IME, good shampoos don`t strip good LSPs)
-Give (even *more*) thought to the wash process..how to move dirt across paint without letting it cause scratches (yeah, it`s tricky!)
-Maybe consider using an unusual "movement pattern" when washing, so that if that does cause marring it`ll be something obviously new/different from the issue you`re looking at now- "I moved the mitt *that* way the last time and that`s how the new marring looks!"
-Try suffering through a few "blotting technique" drying sessions, so there`s little/no "wiping" of the presumably clean paint, or at least move the Drying Towel(s) in a different direction/motion compared to the wash

 

[Desertnate]

EDIT: Disregard the question about generation. I see now it`s a `13 which is a MK6 just like mine.

Like the others have offered, if I was closer, I`d love to help out...one GTI owner to another. Just curious, what generation are we talking about? Mine is a MK6. From what I understand, the paint was pretty consistent across most of the generations.

What really frustrates me is the reemergence of holograms, albeit light ones after careful washing and polishing. As I said before, the only thing I can think of is that the car is sufficiently dirty that they are happening regardless of how carefully I wash and dry. VW paint may be hard to correct but it seems easy to scratch!

Oh...so very true. I accidentally put some very small scratches in my hood using my fingernail to assist removal of a tiny, dried bird dropping particle on my roof. Don`t get me started on the results of using a Nanoskin clay sponge and how hard THAT was to fix.

I still recommend to go with Sonax Cutmax. And for be safe go with Sonax Perfect Finish since it is great on soft finicky paints. Then tune it in with the orange pad or the more coarse cutting pad.

With the rock hard paint, what do you think of Sonax Cut and Finish for this type of job? Might be a little less aggressive and save him from having to do a second polishing step with Perfect Finish or EX 04-06.

 

[Accumulator]

I accidentally put some very small scratches in my hood using my fingernail to assist removal of a tiny, dried bird dropping particle on my roof. Don`t get me started on the results of using a Nanoskin clay sponge and how hard THAT was to fix...

I tell people to consider their paint to be as sensitive as the surface of their eyeball, with the big diff being that (conventional) paint won`t heal if you scratch it.

I once marred an Audi by using a *very* soft piece of cotton to "protect" the (hard) paint when closing the trunklid Thought I`d be OK since the paint and the cloth were both clean, but no...

 

[rlmccarty2000]

Sounds like you are having fun! For VW and BMW paint I like to use Menzerma 400 followed by 4000. Menz is used in the German car factories to repair defects so you might as well follow their lead.

 

[rlmccarty2000]

Sounds like you are having fun! For VW and BMW paint I like to use Menzerma 400 followed by 4000. Menz is used in the German car factories to repair defects so you might as well follow their lead.

 

[Bill1975]

Sorta-random ideas for a fix follow:

-Ensure the paint is clean before you do any further correction (clay/etc., really decontaminate them since residual dirt might be the problem)
-Find some products that *YOU* consider user-friendly (welcome to the "no M205 for me, thanks" club )
-Don`t work the abrasive products dry, wipe off while still a little wet even if it means Big Hassle/Lots of Time
-Clean, or better yet replace, your pads, and MFs, *very* frequently; don`t let soiled stuff touch the paint
-Keep using the spray that strips the panel clean and shows what`s really there
-When you do get it corrected, use some LSP that *really* sheds dirt readily
-Consider a more potent shampoo mix and/or a better shampoo (IME, good shampoos don`t strip good LSPs)
-Give (even *more*) thought to the wash process..how to move dirt across paint without letting it cause scratches (yeah, it`s tricky!)
-Maybe consider using an unusual "movement pattern" when washing, so that if that does cause marring it`ll be something obviously new/different from the issue you`re looking at now- "I moved the mitt *that* way the last time and that`s how the new marring looks!"
-Try suffering through a few "blotting technique" drying sessions, so there`s little/no "wiping" of the presumably clean paint, or at least move the Drying Towel(s) in a different direction/motion compared to the wash

Thanks for this. Some of these I already follow, but it is food for thought. In trying to wash gently I do wonder if I`m not getting all the dirt off, but then washing aggressively will certainly result in marring. I`m using Megs Gold Class, with a splash of ONR. I`m certainly open to trying something else.

Drying is done by patting the towel on the paint, not wiping. I do try to be cognizant of which motion I`m using when washing but it`s easy to forget.

I`ll look at the autopia store and see what I can find. I certainly don`t mind trying some of the suggestions here. Ironically, I get excited about trying new products, but the process of polishing takes so long and wears out your back and arms, so if things don`t go right, or other things come up, the frustration builds quickly.


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[Bill1975]

One of the things I like about this forum are the number of responses and suggestions one gets, realizing that even searching for answers won`t get vehicle or issue specific answers.

For polishes, I`ll try some of what`s suggested here, probably Sonax and Menzerna. I used to have Optimum Polish, but I think the Hyper Polish might have a bit more bite to it.

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[SWETM]

With the rock hard paint, what do you think of Sonax Cut and Finish for this type of job? Might be a little less aggressive and save him from having to do a second polishing step with Perfect Finish or EX 04-06.

Maybe it could work fine that too. It`s up to what kind of finish you are satisfied with. The problem I see it is the polisher. When be doing correction work with a 8mm free spinning DA you often need to have a very coarse cutting pad on hard clearcoats. That would often need to be cleaned up from the haze it creates with a polishing pad and a finer abrasive. It`s a bit of a gamble with one step polishing if you don`t have the compound or the finishing polish. I think it`s easier with a range like Sonax has in their polishes to dial it in with the cut in the different pads. Lets say that you need a cutting pad with Cut and Finish that maybe haze a little bit. I think with a polishing pad and Cutmax you get the same cut and a more clear finish from it. This is just my toughts and it`s so individual what you are satisfied with and then all other aspects with hardness of paints and what brands of polishes and pads and what kind of polisher you use and has access to and so on. With a longthrow polisher or a rotary polisher or a forced driven DA you can fine tune it with the speed on it also or and pressure. I have seen when they do start with compound and an acrylic wool cutting pad and do 2-3 passes and stops and switch to a light polishing pad and do 2-3 passes more with a 8mm free spinning DA. This was an a rock hard clearcoat and very bad condition Audi. The compound was a deminishing abrasive and the took advantage of the cutting part and the finishing part. This was just to show what the compound was able to do. It would be hard to get a consisten result thrue a whole correction. I think it`s carpro clear cut they are recommending to start with a high speed to the first passes and then slow down the speed to use the broken down abrasive to get a nice finish even with a cutting pad. That has often been the other way around when polishing with different speeds. Some uses this with rotary polisher also.

So to sum it up IMO if you don`t do this for the living I would be set on a 2 step correction. And have a compound and a polish and dial in the cutting step first and then inspect the finish you got. If you are satisfied with the finish it`s great otherwise a finishing step don`t take that much of an extra time. When you have a business you do some one step options and would benefit alot if you get a great finish and at the same time a good cut with something like Cut and Finish. Of course if the budget allows I would get them all Cutmax and Cut and Finish and Perfect Finish or EX 04-06. If the budget allows I would get a range of polishing pads with 3-4 pads and a waxing and sealant pad. GG Boss pads and LC thinpro pads seems to be a great choice for 8mm free spinning DA. Then LC has done the ccs pads and was it the flat pads thinner and would maybe work great also now. It`s so crazy hard to recommend this and that cause it`s so many high quality products out there. But a little hint to do a safe choice is to look at the polishes and the car you own what country it`s made in.

I would be very suprised if you inflict those kind of marring from a couple of washes. That you have on your first picture. But what I remember you did a decon before polishing? How is the car when you start washing it do you rinse off all loose dirt? And is it gets as bad after washing as the picture? I thought you bought new mitt and mf towel and drying towel? How is the feel when you drag the mitt and mf towels over the paint when washing and drying? Are they sliding easy and with no feel that it`s hard to wipe it over the paint. Be extra carefull and rinse often or switch mf towels.

 

[DaveT435]

Hey Bill,
I live in Arlington. If I can be of any assistance let me know. Whether it`s polishing or washing. I`ve got a lot of experience, several polishers including An ibird and Flex mini. That color is a pain to see defects on, sometimes you have to pull it out in the sun to check the paint. I`ve got several different compounds and polishes. I haven`t read this entire thread, but someone early on said VW paint is hard and you may not have removed all the defects. I`m in south Arlington 360-I20 area. If you want to get together sometime and see if we can resolve your problems I would be more that happy to help you out.

 

[Stokdgs]

The reason Mercedes Benz went to Ceramic (Hard) paintwork was because of all their Clients complaints about their Black Mercedes cars scratching up so easily.
Then, the paint was now so hard, it was even harder to correct.. This was before Meguiars 105, came out I believe...

So Mercedes Benz went to Menzerna, a company in Germany that specialized in polishing compounds, and had them mill certain abrasives in compounds for this paintwork that were needed to correct it..

This is when Menzerna Compounds started making compounds to correct that harder Mercedes paintwork.. And Menzerna in my experiences has always worked great on all German paintwork..

There are many products today that will correct anything, including harder than any paint on the planet - airplane paint - and boat gelcoat -

So, the question I keep having in my brain is - if your paint is harder, then why is it so easily scratched??

The biggest hurdle here correctly diagnosed by SWETM is your wash technique and equipment, then the machine, and then the pad/s..
I would change to a really good, slick, wash media - Optimum makes a great one here -- https://www.autopia-carcare.com/optimum-car-wash.html#.WqnccWpzb3g

I only use a really soft chenille type wash mitt that is a bright color, so I can look at it each time BEFORE I touch the paint again to see if anything is stuck on it that does not belong there, and remove it.. I never scratch a car, washing with this type mitt and Optimum Car Wash Soap..

Regarding your idea of using Optimum Hyper-Polish -- It is Still a Polish, but it will continue to work until you stop, it will polish more fine as you end the cycle and let up on the pressure.. I have never thought about trying to use it with my Makita Rotary on any German Paintwork, because I think it will take too long, and on some of the destroyed german paint I have seen, it wont even come close to clearing up the mess..

I think I know why you like the Optimum Line - they work easily, don`t dry up, and go a long time - all of this is good.. As long as you use the right technique, pick the right product and pads for the work..

There used to be a couple of guys from DFW Area on here, anyone remember them ??? Believe one had something..DFW in his name,, remember that guy ?? He was from Dallas..
Anyone from that area, please advise.. Thank you..
Dan F

 

[DaveT435]

There used to be a couple of guys from DFW Area on here, anyone remember them ??? Believe one had something..DFW in his name,, remember that guy ?? He was from Dallas..
Anyone from that area, please advise.. Thank you..
Dan F

As posted above I`m more than happy to help out. I`ve got everything to make sure the paint us corrected completely. We can go over washing technique. We can even coat it for a little more scratch resistance if he wants.

 

[Stokdgs]

As posted above I`m more than happy to help out. I`ve got everything to make sure the paint us corrected completely. We can go over washing technique. We can even coat it for a little more scratch resistance if he wants.

Great to hear from you, Dave T435 !!!
Thank you so much - hope you guys get together some time..
Dan F

 

[DaveT435]

Great to hear from you, Dave T435 !!!
Thank you so much - hope you guys get together some time..
Dan F

Hopefully he reaches out. I definitely have anything we would possibly need to get it taken care of for him.

 

[Accumulator]

Bill1975- Ah, you are blotting when you dry. Thanks, that does narrow it down as the marring appears to follow a "moving some material across the paint" pattern.

While I`m *NOT* saying it`s the cause of the issue, I consider Gold Class Shampoo to be "wheelwell-duty quality" and I don`t mix ONR (or IUDJ) with my conventional shampoos, but if you get a benefit from it then OK. While I don`t need its water-softening properties, I don`t mix RW with my shampoo, in part because I wonder if it might make dirt adhere to my wash media.

In trying to wash gently I do wonder if I`m not getting all the dirt off, but then washing aggressively will certainly result in marring.

Depends how you ramp up the aggressiveness. Using warmer water, a more potent shampoo mix, giving it a longer dwell-time, and doing more passes are ways to do that without necessarily resulting in (more) marring. After the initial pressure washing, I do a minimum of three passes (shop-dust only on vehicle) and the max is simply "however many it takes". As long as each pass is gentle enough, more passes doesn`t necessarily result in more marring (just more potential for it).

One thing to consider- (as I post repeatedly ) the instant your wash medium picks up something abrasive it becomes a potential scratch-machine. With that in mind, is there significant dirt on your wash media or in your rinse bucket at the end of a wash? If so...well, "uh-oh!" IMO. No matter *how* filthy a vehicle is, I expect my media and rinse buckets to be clean at the end of the wash.

 

[Bill1975]

Hey Bill,
I live in Arlington. If I can be of any assistance let me know. Whether it`s polishing or washing. I`ve got a lot of experience, several polishers including An ibird and Flex mini. That color is a pain to see defects on, sometimes you have to pull it out in the sun to check the paint. I`ve got several different compounds and polishes. I haven`t read this entire thread, but someone early on said VW paint is hard and you may not have removed all the defects. I`m in south Arlington 360-I20 area. If you want to get together sometime and see if we can resolve your problems I would be more that happy to help you out.

Hi Dave, I`m in the same area as you. I`ll send you a PM. Would really appreciate the help. Yes, my car is a carbon steel gray GTI. And the metallic paint makes it hard to catch everything.

Good to know there are some locals here. My last car was a black Passat. Scottwax (who doesn`t seem to be on here anymore) detailed that car a few times some years ago and got me turned on the Optimum line of products.



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[Bill1975]

Bill1975- Ah, you are blotting when you dry. Thanks, that does narrow it down as the marring appears to follow a "moving some material across the paint" pattern.

While I`m *NOT* saying it`s the cause of the issue, I consider Gold Class Shampoo to be "wheelwell-duty quality" and I don`t mix ONR (or IUDJ) with my conventional shampoos, but if you get a benefit from it then OK. While I don`t need its water-softening properties, I don`t mix RW with my shampoo, in part because I wonder if it might make dirt adhere to my wash media.



Depends how you ramp up the aggressiveness. Using warmer water, a more potent shampoo mix, giving it a longer dwell-time, and doing more passes are ways to do that without necessarily resulting in (more) marring. After the initial pressure washing, I do a minimum of three passes (shop-dust only on vehicle) and the max is simply "however many it takes". As long as each pass is gentle enough, more passes doesn`t necessarily result in more marring (just more potential for it).

One thing to consider- (as I post repeatedly ) the instant your wash medium picks up something abrasive it becomes a potential scratch-machine. With that in mind, is there significant dirt on your wash media or in your rinse bucket at the end of a wash? If so...well, "uh-oh!" IMO. No matter *how* filthy a vehicle is, I expect my media and rinse buckets to be clean at the end of the wash.

I`m happy to change soap if there is a better one. I use ONR when the car isn`t as dirty, other wise I just threw a splash in there because I thought maybe it could help?

I did a two bucket wash, I don`t wring the mitt out after pulling it out of the bucket. about three passes per section, and rinse the mitt in a rinse bucket.

There`s no resistance as I`m washing. The mitt always feels like it glides across the paint. Since dirty paint seems to dry quicker, I keep the hose running over the panel if it dries out quickly (this is mostly on the lower parts of the car)

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[Accumulator]

I`m happy to change soap if there is a better one...

I`d hate to waste your money...*I* found it of great benefit but others say it doesn`t matter that much, so I just dunno..

I use ONR when the car isn`t as dirty, other wise I just threw a splash in there because I thought maybe it could help?

Eh, I won`t use ONR/IUDJ (by itself) for any kind of real washing, not even the light garage-dust that others would just wipe off. I know that *so* many people report their RW working fine, but IME it *ALWAYS* ends up resulting in some (otherwise avoidable) marring, and it`s not like I`m not being over-the-top about how I go about it.

I did a two bucket wash... about three passes per section, and rinse the mitt in a rinse bucket.

Yikes, I`d *NEVER* cover that much territory at a time, not even with the foamgun providing constant lubrication/flushing! I only use mitts after the panels appear to be clean (from the previous steps) and even then I fill the mitt with shampoo mix, constantly spray foamgun output at the point of mitt-to-paint contact, and I *still* don`t do more than a fraction of a panel (single pass) before I rinse the mitt out thoroughly and refill it with shampoo. I guess that sounds crazy, but I don`t have to polish for years on end either (even when I had a black SUV, even with the dark blue Audi as a winter beater).

Repeating myself again, but...the *instant* the wash medium picks up something abrasive it turns into sandpaper. NO, IME the [abrasive stuff] doesn`t get "safely caught up in the fibers of the mitt" or anything like that, at least not consistently enough that I can count on it.

I simply cannot wash marring-free with the conventional TBM, let alone with a RW. No, I`m not somehow missing something or being careless, I`ve gone over this for *decades* and it`s just how it is for me.

There`s no resistance as I`m washing. The mitt always feels like it glides across the paint.

Eh, I wouldn`t put too much stock in that being an indicator (related to the issue at hand); I dunno if you`re gonna feel something happening at the whatever-(sub?)micron level.

Since dirty paint seems to dry quicker, I keep the hose running over the panel if it dries out quickly (this is mostly on the lower parts of the car)..

Good idea, that`s helping (even if it doesn`t seem like it).

Heh heh, sorta sorry to say this, but your experiences sound very similar to how mine were before I got my foamgun-centric routine squared away. People *say* they [do whatever] with no marring, but it just didn`t work out that way for me and I have to be utterly extreme (even by Autopian Standards) to keep the marring at an acceptable level.

 

[DaveT435]

I`m happy to change soap if there is a better one. I use ONR when the car isn`t as dirty, other wise I just threw a splash in there because I thought maybe it could help?

I did a two bucket wash, I don`t wring the mitt out after pulling it out of the bucket. about three passes per section, and rinse the mitt in a rinse bucket.

There`s no resistance as I`m washing. The mitt always feels like it glides across the paint. Since dirty paint seems to dry quicker, I keep the hose running over the panel if it dries out quickly (this is mostly on the lower parts of the car)

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I like Optimum products also. I do have the Optimim wash here along with a few others. Depending on what`s been done, the LSP and when it was put on we may want to do a full decontamination, or at least use Reset to try to make sure everything is off the surface.