so what exactly causes scratching?

Sounds silly but its true. The most swirl-free paint I've ever seen were on cars fresh from the paint booth. Even after buffing and prepping they were awesome. Of course, this was on a $10,000 paint job on a Ferrari, but hey, beggars can't be choosers. ;)



I used to help detail a Ferrari for a guy that showed it a Ferrari Club of America regional events. Now this car had an unbelieveable paint job (red, natch) but it too showed swirls, ever so microscopically. One of our show tricks....well, not a trick cuz everyone does it..... was to glaze the car about an hour before judging started. The glaze would cover any ultra-micro-marring for about 2 hours, maybe three on a humid overcast day. Long enough to get thru judging.



This car was typically trailered to shows but also driven for fun. So it needed lots of work between events to get it show ready. The owner and I would work for hours on small sections of the car just to get it decent enough to put on a trailer. Then we'd finish it off after the car was positioned in the show area. All in all, we'd spend 30-40 hours of paint prep for 30 minutes of judging.



If most of y'all saw this car you'd dooty yourselves, the paint was so nice. But even 5 figure paint jobs will show some swirls somewhere. And the car owner WILL notice them.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Guess My Name [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Get a color car that shows them less! It helps greatly with peace of mind and lessens the chance for head banging against walls.[/b]</blockquote>
Shine a 1,000,000 candle spotlight onto your black paint and brace yourself for what you see. My bimmer looked like it was a mess and even my garage queen MBZ looked pretty bad. The bimmer looked like it was polished with sandpaper. I couldn't believe how bad the swirls looked under the spotlight, especially on the door handles. There were shiny swirls going straight from front to back, exactly the way I've been detailing my car. I went to the spot on the hood where I applied FI-2 and PPCL and it was a complete mess. And this is on a car that was washed a few hours ago and looked great in normal light. But under the spotlight, both my black cars are filled with specks of dust and swirls.

The good news is that swirls were hard to detect on my silver Honda.
 
If you treated a CD exactly like you treated your car, the CD would definately have more scratches, because the CD is softer. So if a technique doesn't abuse a CD as much, it'll definately abuse you car much less.
 
Bummer Intermezzo330I.



I will never own another black car again I have had too many I think 4 in my life. They are such a pain to keep clean and swirl free.



Now the metallic silvers YEAHHHHHH. Now these are great colors at hiding the swirls! I will probably stick with these colors for a long time.
 
Steve you're a great guy and I couldn't say anything bad about you buddy. But you do have to admit that Puterbum's post was quite hillarious. I'm still laughing as I type. You're a good sport Steve. Laters
 
OK, yeah, I am posting.



No matter what you touch the paint system with, you will mar it.

(this statement is based upon my almost 50 years of painting, dealing with the paint suppliers, the vehicle manufacturers, etc.)



The dirt from the air, the dirt and pollutants from the enviorment, the very towel, no matter what brand magic towel, pad, applicator, buffer. speed of buffer, angle of the dangle, etc.



A person may se what ever protective product they wish.



None will be be a miracle, none will be the total answer to the perfect world you seek.



It, the product which you apply, will be "marred" the same as the very surface you are attempting to protect, remove swirls, etc from.



It is that "waxes" are softer, less resistant, than a polymer,(no matter if an acrylic, a "Teflon" etc), they will experience "marring" as well.



Along that line, the "wax test" that all refer too, well , let me ask this, have you ever looked at the facts regarding the fracture points of products, do you have an idea of why that is important?



Think "expansion" think "thermal stress" , think about "temperatures" and how that will expand the clears, etc and how the "testing" is done.



Honest, if in my company's test protocal, we could do that, we could make a product that would, under that criteria, blow your minds. We can't do that , we have to answer to a higher judge, the paint engineers of the people who make the paint systems, the vehicle manufacturers who warranty the paint sytems they purchase from them.



The facts may a little tough for some to accept, but trust me, it happens!



Just keep applying whatever makes you vehicle look up to your expectations, cause it is what makes your socks roll up and down, not anyone else.



The key to happiness with your "baby" is simple, it is not what I , or anyone else, may lay on you, (me, with my technical explainations, that is only important those who want to deal with documented facts from paint suppliers, vehice manufacturers,)but what make you "feel" good.



That is why all visit and exchange thoughts and personal results of products on this great forum.



Just unfortunate that it is no longer possible for me or some others to offer alternate suggestions.



Have a great Holiday, everyone,



Ketch
 
Ron, I totally understand your point. Now granted that ALL the products we use on our paints will have a marring effect to some extent but some will visibly show a whole lot more marring then others, and that's the ones we will stray from. Like if you have use terry pad versus a mf applicator pad on black paint there are noticable differences on the effect.



Now I haven't done any testing, but it wouldn't be totally impossilbe if they come out with a super soft sponge that is physically a lot softer than a clear coat. On a molecular level, the clear coat molecules will tear away at the sponge while the clear will remain completely in tact and unmarred. Unless you are saying that a clear coat is more like a skin with loose particles that can flake off whenever and then even this super soft sponge molecules will take the loose surface molecules away. It is very possilbe, just highly unlikley they will ever manufacture such a product. No number of years of detailng will argue with the laws of physics. But the will gain you experience on what works best on what's out there.
 
But, I am not back, just can not stand to see good folks go nuts over a really very simple issue.



Too many good and caring people here, they are just looking for some "magic" that is not available.



All anyone has to do, (man, you, don't have to listen to all the negative responses) is "use logic, understand and read the past threads, responses, etc" and then each would understand that there are no "magic" products.



Just "quality" products, the amount of resin content, some resins do one thing, other do another.



Like some here desire a "high gloss" and damn the protective values, while others want both, some desire only good gloss and high protective values.



The answers are not difficult, but then each, with their "personal agendas", the "this is the best cause I have seen it once or twice", the ones who have "detailed" for a couple or more years, etc. present an attitude of they are the ones with all the answers, will, that accomplishes nothing.



I am not knocking anyone, just that there is only so much that may done with the resins systems that manufacturers may purchase and how the may blend them to make a product.



It may be tire dressing, a paint protective product, but the thing I see many "buying" into, is "MARKETING", the "dream".



Like I said in an early post tonight, what ever makes a person's socks roll up and down, meets their expectations.



That is fine, all I ask is if a person wants to know the facts, don't depend on what I may post, or any other, unless it is backed up by the people who manufacturer the vehicles.



There was a thread recently where they put up an "endorsement" by Ford of a particular brand of clay.



Hummm, interesting when one read it closely, the "endorsement" was not by the vehicle manufacturer, but by an offshoot division. When I contacted two of the "listed" "endorsed" vehicle manufacturers "Service/warranty" divisions, they stated that the endorsements were pure 'bogus", and not from them. (These are the real people, not the "resale" get rid of the off-lease" divisions.)



These endorsements are by the marketing groups who deal with the "auction houses", not corporate endorsed.



My, how interesting it gets.



Ketch

:eek:
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Redcar GUY [/i]
<strong class='bbc'><span style='font-size: 12px;'>WOW!!!:) [/b]</blockquote>
First time reading a post by RK? Haha, you ain't the only one!
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Intermezzo330I [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>

First time reading a post by RK? Haha, you ain't the only one! [/b]</blockquote>ya:)
Sounds like my Dad, Strong and stern. Some times he hurt my feeling but he was just trying to teach me somthing........
 
I am going to have to read that Clay Magic site again.



The only magic I know of is that David Blane guy levitating on TV. Now that is magic!



Ron why trust the Car manufacturers? Look at the Firestone fiasco or other recalls they fight for the bottom line. Manufacturers just want products applied that do not compromise the car's warranty! Manufacturers are in business to make money not make our cars shine etc. They understand the buying public wants shiny cars with low maintanence and I suspect only about 5% of the buying public actualy care for their cars as we do on this forum. I feel the proof in that is in the membership numbers and what is sold in retail stores.



Ron what is the hardness of clear coat? New clears manufactured since 2000 forward.



But Steve does have a point. If a towel is softer than the clear than how can it mar if the paint is laboratory clean I.e. no dirt or nothing? I understand how the dirt in the towel and on the paint when moved around can swirl because it could be harder than the clear but not the towel itself.



The wax test is that a test and not a bad real world test for their location of the world. Where is technical data from the wax manufacturers or the clear manufacturers about their testing etc?



Yes it is a marketing world and every company markets their product to some customer else they would not be in business very long. Your company markets to dealerships, OEM's & detailers who sign up for your classes. Do you have competitors? I hope so in this free market soceity we live in. Are their products better different or exactly the same?



Good to see you still read the forums wish you would post more though.
 
The vehicle manufacturers purchase the paint products from paint manufacturers, and then tell the vehicle owners what the paint suppliers tell them to.



Trust a vehicle manufacturer? You must be kidding, like trusting a fox to guard the hen house.



The point I was attempting to get across is the majority of the products that are on the market for detailing/car care have never been tested, etc by the paint suppliers/vehicle manufacturers.



If they were really even half a good as what the advertising/marketing staff says, then the paint suppliers/vehicle manufacturers would have them private labeled.



There are a few products that this has been done with, but very few and even some of those were never tested or approved by engineering in the vehicle manufacturers company, but were just assumed to be OK.



Since the marketing group thought that because they used them on their cars in their driveway, were great products. After all, "gee, I see them on all the store shelves". So, based on that rather lame basis, their marketing/parts group had them private labeled.



Then, as is presently happening at a large German company, the engineering group has seen a marked increase in warranty claims of paint and wheels.



Looks like some whiz kids are going to be looking for a new job, as it has cost them millions and hurt the one driving force of any car company, Customer Satisfaction Index.



35,000,000 new vehicles built every year in this world, several hundred thousand employees to get them built and to market, support them, so there will always be errors.



Do we have to jump through the hoops of engineering, both the paint and vehicle manufacturers,, you bet your bippy, we do.



With any luck, in a year or two, we might even get an order, it takes that long to go through all the real testing, toxology, etc.



Ketch

:eek:
 
Ron,



It's good to have you back, only if it's for a few posts. Autopia has not been the same without you.
 
First some background on what is happening in the world of OEM clears.



In late 2000 all the OEM paint suppliers introduced new versions of 1K clears.



As of now, not one of the Big 3 use a 2K clear any longer, there are still some smaller assembly plants overseas shooting 2K on higher end vehicles, but not in the US or Canada.



Most of the larger European and Asian assembly plants have also either changed to the new clear or are in process of doing so.



The new clear is a 1K+ and each of the paint suppliers have their own marketing name, from Gen 6, to Carbonite, they all are very close to each other.



These new clears were produced at the request of the world's vehicle manufacturers.



The need that was identified was for a more "etch" resistant clear, one that would hold up better against enviormental pollutants.



(Personal observation here, they are no more etch resistant for the first year than the older clears they were using)



There is a trade off when tweeking these resin systems to obtain that charatiristic. The clears mar more easily, IE, they scratch, they are softer for several months to a year.



As far as a hardness test, that requires a very special, expensive instrument. Do any here need to actually know the "hardness" of the clear, not really, for you can do nothing to change it anyway.



All one needs to be aware of is what I have posted, the new 1k+ clears will mar more easily for some time.



The newest clear, one that PPG is set to introduce, is of the 1K+ family, but has a very involved resin change and will not only meet the "etch" resistant critera, but have much more "mar" resistance.



This new clear will still mar and get scratched, however it will be a dramatic improvement over what is presently used by all the major players in the car business, North America, Asia, and Europe. All the other paint supplier will quickly catch up with their technolgy and introduce like clears.



This new clear is the one I referred to sometime back regarding the need for new types of compounds and polishes to correct minor defects, marring, etc.



I think what needs to be addressed is what many are questioning at the present, and that is the marring,(swirls, wash/dry marks, etc) seen as you care for as well as drive your vehicles.



A good part of these (micro mars) are actually being put in the products we all apply the clear of the vehicle.



Waxes are soft, have low fracture points, and are evaporative when fractured.



That is one of the reasons that I question the testing critera being touted on that website.



The area of the country is not as improtant as preparing several panels with identical base/clears, cured the same, etc.



Then, following application of the various products, the panels should be heated to a series of temperatures.



These temperatures will create the weakening and fracturing of the applied products.



An example, if you will, is that it does get to the high 90's during the summertime in Minnesota.



A dark green metallic base with a clear, on the flat surfaces exposed to direct sunlight and little or no air movement may reach as high as 265 degrees F.



A white with clear may reach as high as 150 degrees F.



The fracture points of the common waxes are shown on our site under the Tech Tips area.



I leave it to each to make their own determination of what product is best for their requirements based on these facts.



What does one desire?



Another issue is some of the synthetic or polymer protective products being made. There was a new resin introduced a few years back that uses water and little or no hydrocarbon solvents to carry the resin and allow cure.



While these do provide a very high gloss factor, are less prone to staining of trim etc, they are not as robust in providing protection from the enviormental pollutants.



Normal rainfall and washing of the vehicles break apart the molecular chain that makes out the final coating of the product.



We formulated several versions of sealants using these types of resins, but following long term testing felt that the lack of longivity and what our customers require for long term protective values, made the decision to not produce a sealant product with that type of resin system.



But, they did provide one magnificent shine.



Just doesn't hold up per our requirements.



Ketch







:cool:
 
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