silicone again...

wannafbody

wannafbody
Interface Science

What Makes Silicones Special?

Silicones are the only organic/inorganic hybrid polymers that have been extensively commercialized. This is true for several important reasons.

The organic portion in poly(dimethylsiloxane) or PDMS – by far the most common silicone polymer – is the methyl group. The surface energy of any substance is a direct manifestation of the intermolecular forces between molecules. In the case of the methyl group, these forces are almost the weakest possible (only aliphatic fluorocarbon groups are lower).

The inorganic siloxane backbone is the most flexible polymer backbone available. This allows the methyl groups to be arranged and presented to their best effect. Consequently, PDMS provides one of the lowest-energy surfaces known. This results in a low-surface-energy polymer that can be bettered only by more expensive fluorocarbon polymers. It is this unique surface behavior that accounts for many silicone applications.

Adhesives, Emulsions, Antifoams, and Surfactants
In many applications it is critical for the silicone product to stick (adhere) to another material. Whether the silicone is used as a coating, sealant, or an adhesive, a low-surface-energy polymer is being “stuck” to another material, which is not an easy challenge. It is achieved by carefully designing and formulating silicone products that bond directly with the substrate.

Silicone coatings can be designed to have unique release behavior, with no adhesion between the silicone coating and an adhesive layer required. Adhesives can then be peeled off a silicone backing film, while retaining their adhesive performance.

Silicone polymers are widely used in water-based processes and applications. Most silicone polymers are not water-soluble. For aqueous delivery, they are usually formulated as an emulsion – a dispersion of small droplets of silicone oil within an aqueous surfactant solution. Mechanical emulsification and emulsion polymerization also allow silicones that are difficult to handle or manufacture to be used with ease in an aqueous formulation or end application – eliminating the need for solvents to disperse the polymers.

Silicone polymers formulated in this way are often used in cosmetics, industrial release, or fabric care applications. The silicone usually brings a functionality such as hair conditioning or mold release.

Silicones may be formulated as opaque emulsions or as clear microemulsions.


The reduction or elimination of foam is critical for many industrial processes and some domestic ones, such as laundering clothes. Silicone is an ideal antifoam. It is liquid within a wide range of viscosities, has a low surface energy, and is clean. This means it is easily formulated, will penetrate aqueous films, and is suited to domestic use.

Although most silicone polymers are not water-soluble, an important class of water-soluble silicone surfactants does exist. Surfactants are typically polymer molecules with two distinctive regions or “ends” – a hydrophobic (water-fearing) oil-soluble end and a hydrophilic (water-loving) water-soluble end. Such a molecule is very effective at stabilizing an oil-water interface. In the case of silicone surfactants, the silicone is the hydrophobic end, with the hydrophilic end often poly(ethylene) oxide.

Silicone surfactants have unique properties, including wetting and emulsification behavior. Unlike many alkyl-based surfactants, they are active in organic media and can be used in either water or solvents. A major application for silicone surfactants is in the production of poly(urethane) foams, an organic-based process where normal alkyl surfactants would be ineffective.

Find out what an interface is and why it is important.


(Doesn't this article say that the methyl bonding of PDMS is weak? Wouldn't this indicate that in a wax they'd wash away? Also compare silicone caulk(silicone resin I believe) with silicone dielectric compound-the dielectric grease doesn't harden and doesn't bond to the surface(it can be wiped off). Isn't the PDMS used in dielectric grease the same PDMS used in car waxes?) -wannafbody
 
I'm not sure that he said it.... but maybe he could put that into plain english for the rest of us?? It pertains to what (detailing wise/products)?
 
something else to think about- I read a post by Mike Phillips of Megs who said that Megs products use oils to help adhere to the paint surface. I'm not sure some high tech wax floating on a film of oil isn't going to slide right off the paint during the washing process. To me a product that bonds to the paint surface would be a stronger more durable product-REGARDLESS OF WHO MANUFACTURES IT.
 
Also, although off topic, Polydimethysioxane PDS,is a 'water' based amino functional polymer,which despite what some people have wrongly reported,is actually 'good' for paint,because it does not dry out the surface(unlike Dimethyl) silicone.[/QUOTE]



can you post an article stating that PDMS is an amino functional silicone polymer(resin)? Can you explain how PDMS bonds to the paint? From what I've read silicone resins are different than PDMS.
 
wannafbody said:
something else to think about- I read a post by Mike Phillips of Megs who said that Megs products use oils to help adhere to the paint surface. I'm not sure some high tech wax floating on a film of oil isn't going to slide right off the paint during the washing process. To me a product that bonds to the paint surface would be a stronger more durable product-REGARDLESS OF WHO MANUFACTURES IT.
3 weeks tops. That's all I need with respect to durability. I don't know how everyone else feels about the longevity of a product but I have no intention of putting a product on my vehicle and then waiting 6 months to see if it's still there. I see some pretty harsh winters in Utah but a month on the outside is all mine go before getting a fresh coat of something. Even the best sealants get swirls and bonded contaminants happen, period. In my mind detailing is a lot more than putting an LSP on and waiting for it to need reapplication.

Wannafbody, I keep seeing similar comments from you in different threads on multiple forums. Obviously durability is of major importance to you. How long do you let cars go? Don't you like the experience of detailing your car often? You ought to start a thread titled: How Long Will It Last and post your results there. You can post month by month updates.
 
I don't mind detailing but... I have 4 vehicles I routinely take care of. I also live 1.5 miles from a coal plant. All 4 vehicles are outside 24/7. Every rain douses the cars with a film of dirt. Obviously I NEED a durable product. in the past I've used many products and some seemed to have washed away after a couple weeks. Others have had good durability. 2 have been extremely good. I routinely use a spray like Z8 or AW when washing my car-which gets washed frequently. Another gets washed every couple weeks and the other 2 infrequently(unfortunately sometimes months between real bucket washes-especially in winter). For those vehicles I want a durable product that will keep dirt from sticking to the paint. If my cars were garage queens then durability and protection probably wouldn't be as much of an issue for me. I like living by the motto "you can never have too much protection":yay
 
what the heck :confused:

all I can say about silicone is it sure does make for great pin-up posters :yay
 
wannafbody said:
I don't mind detailing but...I have 4 vehicles I routinely take care of.
I think that this part of your reply basically answers my question. Many of the enthusiasts on this and other boards not only don't mind detailing but really enjoy doing it. We want to do it well and often. We not only desire the end result of a clean, shiny, well maintained car both inside and out but actually enjoy the process regardless of how often we do it or what ever causes the need to do it. To us it doesn't necessarily matter how many cars we have, where they parked or what gets on them. The products we use stand up very well to these considerations at the frequency we use them. Routinely taking care of a vehicle is not the same as frequently taking care of a vehicle. Routinely my imply yearly for that matter. My point is simply that to many enthusiasts (me being one) the durability of a product is secondary to other considerations whether it be our preference in looks, cost or ease of use.
 
I agree to a point. I take care of my personal car quite frequently. It's normally washed once or twice a week. Even though it has Zaino on it I still spruce it up with some extra Z8. 2 vehicles are work vehicles that are washed infreqently. For those vehicles I want a product that can stand up to the worst that mother nature and industry can throw at them. My experience has been that most products are not able to hold up against several months of dirt, rain and road salt. I've been very surprised at how well Duragloss and Zaino have held up on those vehicles. Collinite has worked fairly well for me in the colder winter months but I have found that over several months it does accumulate dirt that requires a claying to remove.
 
When I put Duragloss on my Ranger they told me that since it is garaged when not driven it would last for a year or more.
That is exactly what I plan on doing. Been over 4 months and it looks just as good as when it was put on.
I wash and keep my vehicles clean but I have better things to do with my life than spend all my time waxing my cars. I guess for some it is a hobby for me it is something that is necessary to keep it looking good but I can find other things that I prefer to do.
In the summer I detail my show car every time I go to a show or drive it so I detail it two or three times a week plus keeping all 7 of my vehicles clean that is more waxing than I really care to do so durability is very important to me.
 
go to Valuegaurd at Autoint.com

A high concentration of amino-functional quality silicone polymers 12 to 16% provides great protection a true paint sealant.

Zaino and Duragloss are polishes first and foremost they do keep there gloss a while and stay clean but you need to know what you are getting.

regards mongo
 
mongo said:
Zaino and Duragloss are polishes first and foremost they do keep there gloss a while and stay clean but you need to know what you are getting.

regards mongo
If by "polishes" you mean those two products don't protect, I think you are waaaay off base. Sounds like you have been reading some of Ketch's sales pitch.
He really gets on the "over priced boutique product" soapbox about Zaino, but I don't know just how he categorizes Duragloss. It sure isn't an "over priced boutique product". :)

Charles
 
mongo said:
go to Valuegaurd at Autoint.com

A high concentration of amino-functional quality silicone polymers 12 to 16% provides great protection a true paint sealant.

Zaino and Duragloss are polishes first and foremost they do keep there gloss a while and stay clean but you need to know what you are getting.

regards mongo


polishes as used by Zaino and Duragloss are really sealants(non-abrasive)
 
Yes they are sealant but not in the sense of like some Amino-functional type sealants.

I know they are not abrasive as on ZPC is abrasive

Its they are polishes first and foremost which are durable and protective but not int he sense like an amio-functional sealant.

composition makes up that why gloss goes away quicker with these products more productive elements to these .

Either way there are relly good products to use

I am using Klassse AIO topped with Meguiars 21 looks good and lasts have used Zaino as well.

mongo
 
Zaino does not protect against an egg amino-functional polymers do so if it does protect against it then it keeps other contaniments off as well from getting on or in your paint.
 
mongo said:
go to Valuegaurd at Autoint.com

A high concentration of amino-functional quality silicone polymers 12 to 16% provides great protection a true paint sealant.
I don't know anything about the product or the company but apparently they've marketed correctly to one loyal fan. The fact that I haven't heard anything about them would cause me some concern with respect to trying them. Most products get some discussion on the various boards even if they are a commercial product. I haven't seen any on this line of products. Any further information you could provide would be helpful.
 
They manufacture products for OEM and make alot of chemical for other companies just because they don't have a following on a forum doesnt mean squat.

Right now i am using Klasse AIO topped with Meguiars 21 looks good thinking about trying Finish Kare products.

mongo
 
Amino and Siloxane silicones are both 'Functional', that is they are 'dry' and do not 'migrate', unlike Dimethylsiloxane.

I refered to Dimethylsiloxane in a previous post,Wannafbody has quoted my reference to it in this thread.

'Amino functional silicone polymers'=Polydimethylsiloxane,a key ingredient contained in both Liquid Glass and FK#2180,both of which are renowned for their durability.
 
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